This topic is a conversation about revenge (vengeance) as seen from the perspective of those who desiring to live in a way that is pleasing to the King of all the universe–as revealed in the Hebraic and Christian traditions.
This is an exercise that all can join in on since we are not adopting a belief system–we are simply asking questions of a known set of writings and the historical response to those writings.
There is a certain sweetness to the thought of revenge.
❝You’ve got an over-developed sense of vengeance.❞
❝I want my father back.❞
“Is very strange. I have been in the revenge business so long, now that it’s over, I don’t know what to do with the rest of my life” — Inigo Montoya
And also a certain emptiness to the consummation of revenge.
To the Christians at least, may I ask, if we believe we are subjects of a Heavenly King, whose symbol is a lamb slain before foundation of world–what place does revenge hold in our lives?
If this Heavenly King indeed has been revealing himself to us from the creation of our species and the record has been preserved through the descendants of Abraham, and has been adopted by Christians through the written scriptures, it would be fair to explore both those writings and traditional reflections on them in pursuit of the answer to this question. (Read early teachings here.)
I’m not going to offer any long commentary here, just quotes from the scriptures. I find meditating on these words to be difficult. I don’t want my enemies to get away with their evil deeds (God says they won’t), but somehow it would seem “better” if I could just see they were getting what they deserved … right now.
And so this topic is difficult. But appropriate perhaps for holy week this year.
T*3
❝Come, let us worship Christ the Lord,
who for our sake endured temptation and suffering.❞
Though harshly treated, he submitted
and did not open his mouth;
Like a lamb led to slaughter
or a sheep silent before shearers,
he did not open his mouth.
“But, you, O Lord of hosts, O just Judge,
searcher of mind and heart,
Let me witness the vengeance you take on them,
for to you I have entrusted my cause, O Lord my God!”
If possible, on your part, live at peace with all.
Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath;
for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
Rather, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; …”
When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar
the souls of those who had been slaughtered
because of the witness they bore to the word of God.
They cried out in a loud voice, “How long will it be, holy and true master,
before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood
on the inhabitants of the earth?”
“You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also.”
“You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike.
— Matthew 5:43-45
Now the time has come for this world to receive its sentence;
now the prince of this world will be driven out.
Jesus, the beginning and end of our faith, endured the cross,
heedless of the shame, and is seated now at the right hand of the throne of God.
The most amazing thing to me is that God loves me so much in spite of all the wrong I’ve done. There are other proofs out there that He is real but that is the only one I use to prove Him to others.
If it ain’t personal, it ain’t real.
Our VSG is a good student of the good book.
Jesus came to earth appearing as “one of us” and His enemy took the bait. Instead of His death remaining the most demoralizing event in history, it cleared the books against us and opened a new way to reconciliation with God. In His enemy’s worst nightmare’s he could not imagine that his gleeful and cruel torture of the Son of God would not only revoke the deed to mankind, but elevate man higher than the angels in Heaven itself.
Strategy.
That was so nice, Triple T. Glad you reminded us about the power and distraction of revenge.
Practise revenge – then you get better at it. Others respond accordingly to the example being set.
Make war – and war you get – MOAR of it. History shows this to be so. More war may be in decline now simply because the weapons are now so terrible that it would be MAD to unleash them. History has no analogue for this time – so we are in uncharted territory ..
The VSG is showing the way outlined in the passages above visa vie the confrontation with NK – benevolence towards an enemy can yield fruits far greater than the exercise of raw power. The fruit that raw power tends to produce is more of the same – due to the principle of teaching by example.
The USA’s military is an order of magnitude more powerful than its nearest adversary – yet it cannot deploy this might against unarmed civilians streaming across open borders. To do so would damage the USA inestimably – fortunately the VSG knows this. He has deployed a more powerful weapon – a simple IDEA. The idea that hypocrisy is rife ..
Under the leadership of the VSG, a mighty country is demonstrating that benevolence and staying the hand can work – that battles can be VIRTUALLY won …
Interesting word, virtual – from the Latin virtus , meaning strength, virtue.
When it is suggested that hypocrisy is rife, it behooves each one of us to examine our own record – another passage in the same book referenced above talks about logs and splinters in this regard.
The world is currently facing the active clashing of 2 diametrically opposed word views – with a third one engaging in covert action, whilst “panda’ing” to the notion of virtue.
So we are experiencing sanctioned violence and extermination against what is supposed to be its opposite. Peace through submission to brutality – or peace through its actual practise. If teaching by example is a principle of learning – only one of these ways can achieve peace. The problem is that only one of these opposing sides are truly committed to their cause, to the extent of practising what they preach. The side of peace is struggling to contain the natural impulses of revenge – and as such is risking the charge of rank hypocrisy through failing to implement its own principles – and adopting those of its enemy instead. And thus you become what you are fighting – and you have lost it all.
Islam appeals to the basest instincts and has no problem attracting hordes of adherents, only to happy to deploy its ideology. Christianity offers the highest prize – but the narrowest of paths. Few are able to walk it, for the path is beset with the terror of self doubt – fighting natural instinct every step of the way. As of this moment, barbarity is ascendant, and the path looks narrower than ever.
To walk the path requires one to follow its directions … else you will be lost.
Forsaking vengeance is a worthy first step.
Plain Jane shared the link to an excellent essay about the West’s history of defending (or not) against the organized criminal system of which you speak.
There were multiple battles that saved Europe. Lepanto is only one of them.
The article seems to cover that as well. 🙂
I guess I should have read it, then. 🙂
The fact of the matter is, the Muslims only had to win one out of several battles; we had to win them all. That’s a seriously bad situation to be in, having to win every single time to avoid losing the whole enchilada. (But that’s fundamentally what defensive warfare is like.)
Hi, TTT. I read the entire Leponto story, and then followed through with the Battle for Vienna.
Amazing. We almost lost Europe entirely, except for historic battles like those two. Thanks for the links.
Mankind is NOT a band of Angels. We have to have rules/laws and a means to enforce them. We have already seem what happens when children are raised without disipline. We are now plagued with a bunch of two year olds in adult bodies like AOC and her buddies.
I wrote this to my favorite anarchist Mark Stoval back on January 15, 2015 in response to The Classic Liberals and their mistake
He had stated:
“They DID NOT try to completely stomp out the religion.”
In hindsight, a grievous error in judgment.
I was thinking just that but decided not to write it since I did not want to venture into anything that resembled revenge.
And you are very correct. By not stomping out that MURDEROUS political philosopy BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS of people have been murdered and enslaved. Remember BLACK slavery in the USA goes DIRECTLY back to the Muslim SLAVE TRADERS.
What I got out of Why We Are Afraid, A 1400 Year Secret is Political Islam is based entirely on RAIDING and THEFT and SLAVERY. Unlike the Romans, they do not build they DESTROY.
Their “system” diabolically rewards those willing to follow a criminal path in life. One might even call it an Anti-Christ system.
“they do not build they DESTROY.”
Cousins of the DemonicRats.
Yes, Jesus went there. He called the religious of his day “children of their father, the devil.”
Religious “LEADERS”……. FIFY
Most important fact to know: Islam is NOT a religion. It is a war doctrine.
Pg, that is why I use Poltical Islam. It is a POLITICAL System. If you look at the history of islam, the RELIGION was a FLOP until Mohammed ADDED CONQUEST, PILLAGE, RAPE and ENSLAVEMENT. He BRIBED his followers with booty and gave the ‘Reason’ for WAR andconquest as ‘spreading the new religion’.
When people violate the laws of any country, they subject themselves to the discipline that follows. If those in authority do not implement the discipline or are actual participants with the criminals, God’s vengeance applies. As Christians we are commanded to obey the laws of the worldly government, unless they are in conflict with the commands of God. Since Jesus is God and our Savior, His words apply. We are to protect one another – Luke 22 applies. But when those in authority commit acts against us we are to submit. God’s righteous vengeance applies.
In America, the POTUS and those he has placed in authority support the rule of law. We know that many of these foundational laws have come largely from Judeo/Christian principles. However, elements of past leadership have circumvented or outright ignored many of the laws. There are disciplines and penalties included in our laws, just as there are in the Holy Bible. So the obedient leadership and judges will effect the penalties and disciplines as provided in the laws. The elected governmental officials that honor God will uphold the laws that honor God while making efforts to change the laws, regulations, policies and practices that do not. Where worldly government fails in its responsibilities, Christians are to trust God for vengeance. However, that does not mean we should not work to make righteous changes and protect our fellow citizens from evil.
Just my take…
It rubs against the grain to think about how this applies IRL to individuals. I think that’s why we go straight to talking about governments. No body wants to suffer and die in a what appears to be a meaningless manner.
Pondering these things may be helpful in opening up our hearts to the Lord of Glory, but it’s a lot like open heart surgery to truly allow it to challenge our thinking about how to live.
This is a paradox. There is tension. No circumstance has a cookie cutter template for how to walk. We are off the map and our only guide can only be followed via intimate fellowship.
Someone IRL has just pointed out that there is an American aircraft that illustrates that vengeance does not always turn out the way you expect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vultee_A-31_Vengeance
Jesus says to pray for those that persecute you.
Even do good to those that abuse you.
Muslims around the world have for years been reporting that Jesus came to them in a dream and they became Christians. And they become the kind of Christians that will die for their faith.
Christ is the ultimate redeemer.
Just as our Lion PDJT is famous for converting enemies into assets.
Amen, T3!!
Matt 26:52
Worthy is the Lamb.
As a Christian, nothing can harm me. Therefore, I have an obligation to stand and protect the sheep and the innocent. I must pray and let the Holy Spirit guide me and use me to do God’s work. I am not to decide which battles are mine. I am to wait for my guidance and when it is my time to stand, I am to stand in total submission to God and in total confidence.
1 Peter 3:13-22 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? 14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15 but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Ephesians 6:12-19 (AKJV)
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; 19 and for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Matthew 6 (AKJV)
6 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; 18 that thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 and yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Mark 13:10-13 (AKJV)
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. 12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Amen, Elizabeth, Amen.
I love the picture of the Lion and the Lamb, TTT.
Very thoughtful post. I tried to be careful yesterday about feelings of anger toward Muslims, not for the burning of Notre Dame, but the stories filtering out about the vandalism and burning of Catholic churches in France by their Muslim immigrants.
The Lord says vengeance is His, but I do believe we have to stand up to Evil no matter its source. Too many Americans for too long, have been enjoying the easy life – and yes, our poorest are affluent compared to decades ago, and the rest of the world – we’ve turned from faith to believing in “things”…
Abraham was called to “be blessed to be a blessing.” Much of history’s tragedies could have been averted if those who belong to God were putting their energy towards fulfilling that calling.
I had not heard this before. I just found it. It touches my soul. I hope it touches yours.
Elizabeth Carter thank you for posting the beautiful song.
Often I need to remind myself that in hard times Christ weeps with me and that God holds me in His Loving Hands all the time except I do not pay attention and am busy with other things.
Very potent thread T3. Thank you.
I unfortunately or fortunately 🙂 have had experience with revenge. Boomeranged always. Each time, things did not improve until I prayed for the persecutors.
Polly was talking about revenge. I just watched this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OxKJjCvITg
Excellent!
I agree with her sense of it.
Something was changed by this fire.
Here’s the kind of revenge I can get behind:
https://dailycaller.com/2019/04/16/attorney-general-bill-barr-asylum-bond/
Very nice thread, T*3…very nice indeed.
Personally, I’ve never been into revenge or in seeking vengeance.
But I had never really reflected on this…until I read through this thread post.
I now realize what a blessing this has been.
Justice…yes.
Whenever someone has wronged me or mine, if it was a criminal act, then I want to see justice served.
And I have assisted law enforcement in prosecuting those crimes.
When someone has deliberately hurt me, my first instinct is to make it stop…and then keep it from happening again.
But seeking vengeance just isn’t in my thought processes, because that would just keep the hurt alive.
I tend to shrug things off, usually.
Friends have even remarked on this at times, and said…”Doesn’t that piss you off? You should be mad about that!”
And so I think about it…
And realize, Yeah, I probably should be angry about that.
But I’m not.
So, thank you, T*3…for making me reflect on this subject of Revenge business.
It makes me realize that I should be thanking God for this blessing of having a ‘long fuse’ that rarely gets lit.
😀
Good thoughts Wheatie. Can’t live well when you are always looking in the rear view mirror.
The Princess Bride beautifully illustrates how revenge hunger consumes a life.
Great post. Nice read 🙂 found it interesting.
Glad you liked it.
Welcome to our tree.