No Masks During Impeachment

Sundance is right.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer is right.

Eberhard Bethge is right.

There was a POINT in standing up to the Nazis, where they had to NOT JUST CRY OUT, BUT RESIST.

we were resisting by way of confession, but we were not confessing by way of resistance

Bonhoeffer introduced us in 1935 to the problem of what we today call political resistance. The levels of confession and of resistance could longer be kept neatly apart. The escalating persecution of the Jews generated an increasingly intolerable situation, especially for Bonhoeffer himself. We now realized that mere confession, no matter how courageous, inescapably meant complicity with the murderers, even though there would always be new acts of refusing to be co-opted and even though we would preach “Christ alone” Sunday after Sunday. During the whole time the Nazi state never considered it necessary to prohibit such preaching. Why should it?

Thus we were approaching the borderline between confession and resistance; and if we did not cross this border, our confession was going to be no better than cooperation with the criminals. And so it became clear where the problem lay for the Confessing Church: we were resisting by way of confession, but we were not confessing by way of resistance.

Many of you are already not wearing masks, and fending off the Mask Karens and Bidenazis with this reason or that reason, but let’s ALL drop our masks and bring out a new reason.

OUR RIGHTEOUS PROTEST AGAINST ILLEGAL IMPEACHMENT.

Yes, it’s a small protest, but we need to start SMALL.

Please help me spread the word.

No masks will be worn by honest men or women during this illegal and unconstitutional impeachment.

The danger of the rampant nanny state now vastly exceeds the danger of the China virus. Remove the masks to save America.

W


Bcoco
reposted

Andrew Torba @a

Revolt against mask tyranny

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cthulhu

I thought it actually “started” Monday, with organizational BS. The actual meat of it doesn’t start until Tuesday (if ever).

kalbokalbs

It WAS advertised as Monday the 8th. Come to find out, there is no hurry.

The farce of our Senate AND fake news is on full display.

  • Shampeachment 1.0. An absolute imperative to hold the trial in the Seante. Immediately. NOTHING else can take place in the Senate.
  • Shampeachment 2.0. It’s been weeks since the House impeached in lightening speed, without a committee hearing/vote. House delayed delivering the impeachment to the Senate. The Senate did NOTHING on impeachment for a week or two. Scheduled it for the 8th. Oh wait, now it is Tuesday, the 9th.

Fake news is fully complicit with the hypocrisy.

—-

NO masks! NOT today. NOT tomorrow. NO masks!

rayzorback

“Christ Alone”!
I’ve said this very same thing many times here….
(and usually get hammered for it) 🙁

Last edited 2 months ago by rayzorback
scott467

I’m not sure what it means.

If Christ intended to do everything ‘alone’, e.g., spread and teach the gospel, then what purpose is there for preachers and Christians to teach others?

Christ alone saves, but not against our will, i.e., there are several steps which accompany the examples of people being saved in Scripture.

Can people be saved some other way, besides the way it is shown in God’s Word?

With God all things are possible, but I sure wouldn’t make up my own way and hope for the best… why even take the chance?

rayzorback

Not going to go through it again.
I see where you stand.

scott467

“I see where you stand.”

_________

I stand on God’s Word, on what it plainly says — it’s as simple as that, and always has been.

Does it say we have to hear (or read) the gospel, i.e., understand, in order to be saved? Yes it does. That violates some doctrines of men though, like infant baptism.

Does it say we have to believe? Yes it does. Pretty self-evident that we can’t be saved if we don’t believe.

Does it say have to repent? Yes it does. Would anyone argue that we can be saved and continue in our sins without repentance?

Does it say we must confess Christ? Yes it does.

Does it say we must be baptized? Yes it does, and the examples given in Scripture are by immersion, not ‘sprinkling’ or ‘pouring’ or other doctrines of men.

Does it say we must be faithful? Yes it does.

None of the things the Bible says to do in order to be saved are controversial or even difficult, except remaining faithful.

The controversy arises when people either don’t want to do things according to God’s plan for salvation, or they want to add things to God’s plan, or they want to subtract things from God’s plan.

Everyone can do as they see fit.

It’s not me they are going to give an account to on Judgment Day.

But it would be really good practice to try to make arguments that do not comply with God’s Word now, because if we can’t make a credible argument to our fellow man, then how much worse are we going to fail at the judgment?

Last edited 2 months ago by scott467
rayzorback

Sadly… You are putting the cart before the horse.
(See my reply to wolf above)

God Saves us (It is not by works)
He also makes us to believe. (then we “confess”)

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Baptism? Is the theif on the cross not with Jesus in heaven today?
When was he baptised?

Repent? (Yes, we want to and say we do/did)
But have you or I sinned since then?

Faithful?
Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Pretty Plain stuff.

Free will?
Say you or I come to a fork in the road of life…..
God KNOWS we will go right not left, yet to us, it seems we have a “choice”. Yet God KNOWS we will go right.
Is it conceivable that we can go left?

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11
In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will,

Sorry, guess I did “get into it” 🙂

scott467

Can you tell me what the name of this doctrine is, so I can look it up?

Is it ‘predestination’, is it ‘faith only’, how is it commonly referred to?

And do you believe that all of God’s Word must reconcile and harmonize with regard to the same subject matter?

rayzorback

Sovereignty of God, Election and Predestination…. some even call parts of it Calvanism.

God’s word must reconcile to what the Lord wants revealed.
When he wants it revealed.
Some parts are sealed up until the time(s) of the End.

Last edited 2 months ago by rayzorback
bflyjesusgrl

God does not MAKE us do anything. He gave us Free will, he wants us to choose him. He gave us faith as small as a grain of mustard seed. We have to choose to use it and believe. There’s nothing we can do to work for or to earn salvation, it’s the gift of God as soon as we choose to believe in Jesus. He planned and chose us all before the foundation of the world, He wanted a family, but He knows not all will choose to be a part of it. Yes, He knows our thoughts, He knows what we’re going to do. But He does not interfere. He’s constantly talking to us. If our hearts are tender towards Him we hear. If our hearts our hardened, we miss Him. Even if we make mistakes, He’ll work things out for our good. Yes, God is in control of the Master Plan, but He does not control us. He made us in His image, He gave us dominion over the earth. He can’t then come and control us, that would be violating His laws. He is not a man that He would lie or go back on His word. Moses and Abraham persuaded him to change His mind to give extra chances, but He never changed his Word.

cthulhu

Bfly!!!! We’ve been missing you in general threads!

Hope you are healthy and happy!!!!

bflyjesusgrl

Thanks Coothie. 🤗 I’m around, lurking, liking.

rayzorback

🙂 …. no really.
I’ve heard this taught so many times
and used to believe it myself.

It is so full of contradictions.

Who is in control? Us? or God?
Can NOT be both.

I refuse to believe God is sitting in Heaven waiting on us to do something. He already KNOWS… HE made and Planned all things.

If it were up to us to be “saved”… God would be ALONE in Heaven for ever.

bflyjesusgrl

I disagree with you. If God is Love, which He is, why would he knowingly let people be born knowing they were going to hell? That’s not love, that’s torture. A loving God would not do that. We are little gods with free will, above the Angels who must obey. He wants us to choose to love Him, not force us to. It’s not real love if we are forced. If man is forced to love Him, then all would be saved and no one would go to hell.

rayzorback

Disagree? that’s ok, you are not alone 🙂

I’ll just leave it there.

churchmouse

FYI: I cited John 6:39 and John 6:44 above.

singingsoul1

We have free will. God works through us and is us.We can ignore him or obey him. He is unconditional Love but we have to bear the consequences of our actions.

churchmouse
rayzorback

Excellent!!!!

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 

churchmouse

EXACTLY!

There is nothing difficult about this. I know you know.

rayzorback

🙂

rayzorback

So simple even a CHILD should understand.

Christ ALONE!

churchmouse

Thank you!

May God continue to bless you and yours!

rayzorback

Thank you too!

May God Bless you and yours also!

churchmouse

Thank you very much, rayzorback!

rayzorback

YW

(Not to you, but others)…..

Until we give up TOTALLY…

And realize that GOD … IS… SOVERIGN…
We hold ourselves out to be above God.
Claiming to be able to change HIS will.

God waits on NO man/woman and will do HIS PERFECT WILL regardless of what “We” …”will” (Free or not)

churchmouse

This x 1000!

Thank you!

rayzorback

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.”

churchmouse

Absolutely!

Has anyone online done a complete NT collection of these verses?

If so, I have not found such a link.

If you have a good link, I would be grateful if you could share it. Thanks in advance.

rayzorback

We differ on this (Free Will)

I’ll ask again……

If we come to a fork in the road of life….
and God KNOWS we will go right….
Even though it appears that we have a choice on which way to go……

Can it even be possible to go left?

If so….. you must be God.

singingsoul1

God gave us the Law how to live in the Bible.
Free will began in the Garden of Eden when God told Adam and Eve not to eat from one tree.
When the snake temped Eve to take an apple she exercised free will. She made a choice to listen, pick the fruit and offer it to Adam. Adam choose to take a bite from the apple he made the choice free will.
What happened when we choose free will not follow God’s will there are consequences maybe not today or tomorrow . Adam and Eve’s consequences were expulsion out of the Garden of Eden.
There are many examples when Moses lead the Israelite’s through the dessert.
As soon as he left to the mountain what did they do? They build a golden calf.
It was free will not God who made them build an icon. What were the consequences? More trips through the dessert.
God did not create us perfect we make choices (free will) every day.Do we reflect where we choose our will or God’s will. What are our golden calf today we worship? Do we pay a price consequences ? God is not a tyrant that is why gave us his only Son.
The New Testament we again have guidelines to follow.
I am a Presbyterian baptized confirmed French Reformed Calvinist.
I was taught we have free will but our will never trumps God’s Will.

rayzorback

YOU…. are assuming that GOD did not plan all of this to happen.

We do NOT have the power to change God’s plan(s).

Prophesy (fullfilled) PROVES that God has it all planned out before hand.

I will NEVER believe that I can CHANGE God’s plans or will for our lives.

singingsoul1

I believe that God has planes for us but do we always follow his planes or do we at times have to go fist through the dessert until we get it right?
Personally I have seen the steppingstones God has laid out for me and I was astounded. You think at times when we are rebellious that it is God’s plan?
I am sure you are right that God has planes for you. I am not disagreeing with you. God has different planes for all of us some people are very good and follow the law to a detail others who are sinful like me do not always fallow God’s will .
You seem to have a better grasp how God leads your life and what planes he has for your life. God Bless you 🙂

rayzorback

We ALL…. sin (saved or not).
That does NOT mean that it is against God’s “will”.

Romans 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

rayzorback

I find “Free Will”….
Absolutely NOWHERE in my Bible.

churchmouse

Great to see you surface again, bfly!! 🙂

Just two points on theology from John 6:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+6&version=ESV

There is John 6:39:

‘And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.’

And John 6:44:

‘No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.’

No offence meant.

For me, that is the most important chapter in the New Testament. God told Jesus whom to save.

There’s a bit of a fine line between a) those who ignore His call for a lifetime then accept it at the last minute (like the thief on the neighbouring cross) and b) those who are not called at all but participate in church week after week (yes, there are those).

Our blessed Good Shepherd did not — and will not — save everyone.

This is why many Christians call faith ‘a gift’. For it truly is, and a divine one at that, enabled by God’s saving grace.

In closing, we do not know who the saved truly are. Some appear reprobate to us. Others appear to be saved and are not.

bflyjesusgrl

There’s going to be a separating of the wheat from the chaffe CM. 😉

churchmouse

That’s what those verses from John 6 meant. 🙂

rayzorback

Kazactly!

rayzorback

Until you come to HIM as a child…..
and give up yourself 100%…..
You will never understand this Doctrine.

scott467

“Baptism? Is the theif on the cross not with Jesus in heaven today?
When was he baptised?”

__________

A very old argument. I am always curious about the source of resistance to baptism, when it is taught so plainly and repeatedly in Scripture.

We don’t know much about the thief, do we?

For instance, we don’t know if thief was an errant Christian, who had already been baptized.

He referred to Jesus as his Lord:

…………….
“And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.” (Luke 23:42)
…………….

But for sake of argument, suppose the thief was not a Christian and had never been baptized.

Did Jesus not have power to forgive sin while on earth?

…………………..
“But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)” (Mark 2:10, KJV)
…………………..

The thief on the cross was in the presence of Jesus, in Person. Jesus had the power, while on earth, to forgive sins (cf. Mark 2:10).

Jesus said the thief would be with Him in paradise (Luke 23:43), and I believe Him.

But what does the circumstance of the thief on the cross have to do with you, or me or anyone else today?

Is Jesus here, in the flesh, today, to forgive your sins directly?

If He is not, then how can you, or I, or anyone else, be saved in the same manner as the thief?

You see the problem with relying on the example of the thief as a reason to forgo baptism?

There are many examples given, in the Scriptures, of people being saved, after the Lord ascended to Heaven and His church was established, a condition which exists to this day.

Should we not follow the pattern and example given by Authority of Scripture, since the the conditions specific to the thief no longer apply?

rayzorback

Yes, we SHOULD follow his pattern(s):
Baptism, Communion, etc.
But I do not believe they are “Required”.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

scott467

“God Saves us (It is not by works)”

_________

Indeed we are saved by the grace of God, we are not saved by works, neither can we earn salvation.

…………………….
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” (Ephesians 2:8, KJV)
…………………….

If we are saved by grace, through faith, must we not have faith in God’s plan of salvation?

Does His plan not include baptism?

(note: boldface emphasis mine)

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” (Romans 6:1-4)

“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” (1 Peter 3:21)

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38)

“Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.” (Acts 2:41)

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. [13] Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.” (Acts 8:12-13)

“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? [37] And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. [38] And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.” (Acts 8:36-38)

“And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” (Acts 22:16)

“Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12)

“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? [48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.” (Acts 10:47-48)

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” (Galatians 3:26-27)

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (Mark 16:16)

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: [17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16-17)

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

“And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [32] And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. [33] And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.” (Acts 16:31-33)

.

How can we say that the Scriptures do not give us both command and example to be baptized?

Over and over and over again?

How could we deny it?

What could make us even try to deny it?

What could make us try to explain away all the many passages in Scripture, plainly showing that being baptized is part of God’s plan for salvation?

There must be a reason.

What is that reason?

Whatever the answer to that question is, is it not necessarily in contradiction to the plain language of God’s Word?

rayzorback

God’s righteous “Plan” does indeed include Baptism (I have been)…….
But God’s “Salvation” does not.

Valerie Curren

I read this discussion w/ both interest & frustration. I think we, as believers, need to be careful in how we interface with each other. Searching for The Truth is always beneficial. Putting down or disparaging others’ faith journey can be problematic.

I’m not saying this directly to you Scott, just replying to your comment because one verse you shared brought up some thoughts to me.

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matthew 28:19-20)”

My parents’ church has taken this verse extremely literally, in that they baptize in “the name of the Lord Jesus Christ”, & consider other ways of saying what the verse above says to be problematic or less than (my interpretation of their stance). They equate Lord to Father God, Jesus to The Son, & Christ to the Holy Ghost/Spirit, so saying “Lord Jesus Christ” is akin to baptizing in the Name of the Father, The Son, & the Spirit.

To me, though their interpretation may be “technically” correct the spirit of legalism & the attitude of we have the corner on Truth is off-putting & smacks of a degree of spiritual pride. Based on Carl’s Sunday post on pride, there are issues of concern to be addressed there. Since I have “baggage” from years attending that church I also recognize that I’m not capable of complete objectivity regarding that place…

On these biblical topics I truly believe it is very important to “rightly divide the word of truth”. Keeping in mind the passage that says “now we see through a glass darkly, then we will see face to face. Now we know in part then we will fully know even as we are fully known.” for a healthy, gentle, & loving perspective as we wrestle with understanding spiritual truth.

I believe that the Bible is the Truth & the traditions of men can at times illuminate our understanding & at times can hinder our grasp of that truth. The Bible is preeminent, traditions & teachings can be helpful or harmful & likely usually a mixture of both. If something doesn’t line up with scripture it is automatically problematic.

I have a book from grad school/seminary called “Contemporary Options in Eschatology” (end-times theology). I must admit that I’ve never fully read it (along w/ many other required texts for both my BS & MA). My husband is very interested in End Times Prophecy & goes through various phases on the topic. He favors a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church viewpoint.

My brother also got a Masters from a different seminary than the one I attended. He studied some of the End Times teachings and came to a very different perspective than the one my husband holds. It was a Very Lively discussion a few years back when the topic came up over a large family meal. My brother offered to let me read the thesis he wrote on the topic, but forgot about that & so I haven’t read his research paper, though was intrigued by his analyses.

Now my husband & I have had our most challenging discussions whenever we stray into the End Times theology arena. I am Not firmly persuaded into any specific viewpoint, like he is. My natural tendency is to be analytical & critical (as in pointing out scriptural inconsistencies) of any declarations that appear to be part of any specific End Times dogma.

My point is that the Contemporary Options book shows the scriptural underpinnings of the various End Times doctrines. Sometimes the different eschatalogical viewpoints reference the exact same scripture but come to a widely divergent understanding. So, in an eternally pissing off my husband manner, I choose Not to choose which of the many options is the “correct” option (for me), basically recognizing that we cannot Know on that topic so I’m content as things unfold & then we can keep revisiting the topic & increasing our understanding (recognizing all eras of church history included people believing Jesus would return in their lifetime).

I consider the example of the teachers of the law that Herod consulted to learn about the birth of the Messiah. They were well versed in scripture so they could correctly answer Herod’s questions but they & similar men, the Pharisees, were the ones who were least likely to accept the veracity of Jesus’ claims. They knew the letter of the law but denied the spirit thereof!

So many of us here know the letter of the law, as regards our various faith traditions (or in Steve’s case Lack of faith tradition–but he is very knowledgeable on scripture) but we can easily stray into the denying the spirit side of the equation.

So, speaking the truth in love remains the tall order of the day & we all need to take care in how we “correct” others looking for the speck in their theological eye while not addressing the log in our own eye that is by its very nature preventing us from seeing clearly.

Just my 2 cents, not directed At You, Scott, just throwing it into the discussion. God Bless us, Every One, as we seek to increase our wisdom & insight but maintain healthy fellowship & gentle, loving, discerning, & truthful intercourse…

rayzorback

Everything that I have brought here is in LOVE.
Wanting us to ALL … KNOW…. scripture and Doctrine.

Agree with my beliefs or not…..
I only seek to Magnify the Lord.
And open up our thinking.

rayzorback

ps.
I too believe in the “Pre-Tribulation Rapture”

But this is a whole other topic.
And is secondary to the Doctrine of Salvation.

rayzorback

Steps?
Like what?

rayzorback

 2. And if we are delivered and made alive in Christ, still preservation is of the Lord alone. If I am prayerful, God makes me prayerful: if I have graces, God gives me graces; if I have fruits, God gives me fruits; if I hold on in a consistent life, God holds me on in a consistent life. I do nothing whatever towards my own preservation, except what God himself first does in me. Whatever I have, all my goodness is of the Lord alone. 

https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/sermons/god-alone-the-salvation-of-his-people/#flipbook/

scott467

That’s beautiful, but is Spurgeon a source of Authority in matters of God?

Were Spurgeon’s words inspired by God?

Are his words Scripture?

Or was he a man, subject to error, like all other men?

This is the thing I never understand.

Certainly sermons given by men can be very helpful (or conversely, very dangerous) in learning about God’s Word, but how can they ever be Authoritative?

Whether the name is Clement, or Aquinas, or Luther, or Spurgeon, or any other man, whose words are his own, and not God’s?

rayzorback

I gave you many scriptures about where I stand. (In Christ Alone)

Matthew 18:3
and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you change and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.\

That point came to me when the Holy Spirit revealed to me that God is Sovereign and Planned EVERYTHING.

Prophesy PROVES it.

scott467

“I gave you many scriptures about where I stand. (In Christ Alone)”

____________

I don’t recall having this discussion with you before? If we did, it must have been some time ago.

rayzorback

It has been quite a while ago.
I am hammered for by belief every time I bring it up.

I am just relaying (testifying) to what the Lord has taught me through his Holy Spirit and his Word (Bible).

I was raised Southern Baptist and have heard all of your arguments many, many times.

Everything follows the realization (quickening) of God’s Salvation (Before the foundation of the earth)…

Belief, confession, baptism, communion etc.
All are a result of being “saved”. Not a pre-requisite for salvation.

Don’t believe me, a mere man…. ask the Holy Spirit about it.

singingsoul1

My salvation come through Christ on the cross.
The Cross is the key he took all our sins upon himself.
You also leave all your sins at the cross after that standing before God. You stand before God confessing your sinfulness. That is when we stand before God without all our crap we collected in our lifetime but we are aware of it. God is all Love unconditional Love. We can never attain the love God has for humanity.

rayzorback

(Re-Read this thread)

rayzorback
churchmouse

Yes!

rayzorback

True…. Spurgeon is just a learned man as are you. (How might he have “learned” anything?)

churchmouse

If I might interject, the Church needs preachers. You yourself have been following them online.

Charles Spurgeon has been one of the most biblical preachers within the past 200 years.

I am an Anglican and am amazed by what he preached in the 19th century.

His Metropolitan Tabernacle is still alive and well in London today. Spurgeon followed a non-Conformist tradition that dated back to the 17th century:

https://www.metropolitantabernacle.org/Church-Details/History

rayzorback

I provided scriptures to Scott about why I believe what I believe.

It is NOT of or about “Me”…..
It is in Christ Alone.

scott467

“I provided scriptures to Scott about why I believe what I believe.”

__________

I am not sure what you are referring to, or whether you have me confused with someone else.

scott467

““Christ alone” is a handy pseudo-expletive of good nature, unlike just “Christ!” – at least that’s how I read it.”

_________

I could certainly be wrong, but it sounds like a different way to say “Faith alone” (or ‘faith only’), which is a doctrine of men, unless James is wrong.

If we go to any online Bible and search the words “faith alone”, those two words occur only one time in the same verse, in all of Scripture:

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17, KJV)

And if you search the words ‘faith only’, there is only one instance in God’s Word where those two words appear together, again in James, again in chapter two:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24, KJV, boldface emphasis mine)

.
.

“And “In Christ Alone” is a classic tenet and song – correct?”

_________

I was not familiar with it, so I looked it up, and it was written in 2001, so it already gets the side-eye, before I even check the words… 🙂

Last edited 2 months ago by scott467
Elizabeth Carter

Scott, I found this discussion very interesting.
When I think of “Christ Alone” my mind goes to this Scripture:

Acts 4:12

“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

King James Version (KJV)

Acts 4:12 Context

9If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. 13Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. 14And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. 15But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves,

scott467

Very much agreed Liz! 👍

cthulhu

I suspect that you’d be surprised at how many people you perceive to be “persecutors” are actually fond of you.

Furthermore, you’d probably be more surprised at how many agree with many of your points. Yes, the culture secularizes the religious. Yes, it is not good to be taking the Lord’s Name in vain….but we’d rather adjustments in our bad habits be more subtle — like a dime in the “cuss jar” — than a full-blown theological argument.

It’d be nice if we saw you around more.

rayzorback

Thank you….
with that invitation…. I just may be around more 🙂

Elizabeth Carter

razorback, I replied to Scott and considered you included.
I found this discussion very interesting. 
When I think of “Christ Alone” my mind goes to this Scripture:
Acts 4:12
“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” King James Version (KJV)
Please do comment more.
Liz

Aubergine

I have had a discussion about “taking the Lord’s name in vain” with my most devout and faithful to the Bible Christian friend. EVERY decision this woman makes, she consults the Bible first. Her whole church is built around the belief that every word of the Bible is true.

She says that taking the Lord’s name in vain DOES NOT mean using it as an expletive. She says it means pretending to be a believer when you are not, literally “taking on” Christianity as a mantle when you are not really a believer in Christ. You have “taken his name” in vain.

I agree with her, and her church’s assessment of this, as a word is just a word, and is different in every culture and language.

rayzorback

Something (someone) else that God “Hated”:

Romans 9:13
As iis written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Proving that God does NOT “love” ALL people.

rayzorback

Yes… all “Edomites” (Esau). But in particular Esau that sold his Birthright for a bowl of porridge. (All Known in advance by God)

bflyjesusgrl

God hates sin, not the sinners.

michaelh

I’m not sure what the controversy is exactly.

https://www.monergism.com/topics/five-solas/solus-christus

LOL Maybe I don’t want to know! 😉

cthulhu

When you see rayzorback and scott oilin’ up next to the ring, just put a dime in the “cuss jar” and move to the next thread.

cthulhu

That said, rayzorback — I’ll probably be back tomorrow to look through things. I take your words when I see them as a thoughtful suggestion, but prefer not to engage in debates.

Truly, I’m happy to see you, and would be glad to see you more often.

rayzorback

Truly, my words on this topic are not for any that are set in their own doctrine(s) and unwilling to change.

I am only testifying to what the Lord has shown me through his word and his Holy Spirit.

I am no smarter or better than anyone else here (or anywhere).
I am confident in His word and he that gives me Peace (Holy Spirit).

There may be ONE who reads these words and at the least, look into this Doctrine. Some have never heard of such.

rayzorback

I think Scott and I believe the same things.
We only differ in the “Order of operations”

Deplorable Patriot

Not even putting a toe in the water on this one.

rayzorback

I think it is the eternal battle between God and Man.
God has all control.
Man WANTS control.

rayzorback

Did not Lucifer have the same issue?
And that got him kicked out of Heaven?

scott467

Compelling everyone to wear a mask has become a de facto state-mandated religion.

And that directly violates the 1st Amendment to the Constitution.

…………………….
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
………………………

Last edited 2 months ago by scott467
scott467

“In fact, saying that our “church” forbids mask wear by the healthy is a great way to put this “safe on first”.”

___________

That’s a good start.

A Bible-believing church is going to need a Bible answer to why they forbid mask wearing.

Just as they should have a Bible answer for why they ever started wearing masks in the first place.

I don’t get the impression most people (or churches) want to explore these issues in any detail, and I haven’t been able to get any straight answers why.

Which is troubling, to say the least.

scott467

“I think opposing mandates is the smartest church position –”

__________

Some churches go out of their way to be apolitical, presumably because ‘politics’ is divisive, so politics is avoided at all costs. Which of course would be a big problem, if the enemy had made everything political, in which case nobody could really talk about any of it, because ‘politics’.

And opposing a ‘mandate’ by the civil government might be seen as violating Romans 13:1-5.

This, of course, fails to take into consideration:

A) mask mandates are lawless decrees, not legislation passed into law

and

B) fails to acknowledge that unlike first century Christians, we are not under the rule of a monarch, or emperor, or king

We the People are the highest authority, our form of government is of, by and for the People., and our civil servants — at least by design if no longer in practice — work for us.

And We the People have express written Authority in the Declaration of Independence to abolish or overthrow a lawless government, and that Authority was acknowledged and recognized by Abraham Lincoln, not in some obscure letter or of dubious provenance, but in his Inaugural Address on March 4, 1861.

But if these points are raised, we may find that there is simply no response.

Which again, is troubling.

.

“…and ONLY asking masks for the ILL and the VULNERABLE, if the VULNERABLE want them. In other words, voluntary, but requested of the ill – although better if the ill STAY HOME.”

__________

Some, perhaps many, are likely afraid of the China virus, particularly the more elderly members.

So it might be proposed that wearing the mask is not just a voluntary issue for the vulnerable, but that everyone else, out of an abundance of caution for one’s brethren, ought to wear the mask as well, to protect the vulnerable brethren.

All roads eventually lead to the great Covid fraud, a real virus (presumably) which was created by the darkest evil in high places, was unleashed on the world as a political weapon and instrument of mass murder, and the mask is a symbol of submission to the enemy who has done these things to us.

And that likely ends the conversation, unless they are already awake.

And our military, moving with the speed of Godot, after leaving us holding the bag (repeatedly), has likely already destroyed any credibility we might have had — with family, friends, or church — regarding when, or even if, this will ever be over.

So at least we have that going for us. 😁

Not that I have any personal experience with any of these things… I’m just sayin’, you know, for other people, who might find themselves in a situation like that… 👍 😂 🤣 😂

Aubergine

See my comment above for the Biblical rationale for no masks.

Aubergine

That is already my default position, due to this Bible quote:

2 Corinthians 3:18 – And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

And this one:

Mark 4:21 – And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

I have a “unique” gift. I have always seen people as “colors.” It’s not auras, but all people shine with an invisible light that has a color. They are all different. They also DISAPPEAR to me when someone puts on a mask. I feel like I am surrounded by zombies or something. All the lights are out.

No masks for me.

Valerie Curren

I’m curious about the seeing people as colors thing. Do the colors you see always mean the same thing? Like green for go or safe/friendly & red for stop/dangerous? I believe my aunt once said she saw either music or numbers as colors…hmmm…

rayzorback

Remember…..
without the “Light” (Jesus the Christ)…..
EVERYTHING is BLACK.
Light… is what illuminates things and reveals the color.

SteveInCO

Synesthesia, and there’s someone here with it though I cannot remember who that person is.

Valerie Curren

Is that for numbers or music?

SteveInCO

I think it was sounds colors.

Valerie Curren

Thanks Steve. Hope you & Darwin are doing well 🙂

Gudthots

Cuppa Covfefe, I think.

SteveInCO

Yeah, that sounds right.

churchmouse

That’s above my religious pay grade. 🙂

rayzorback

Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

How many laws have “infringed” on this “right”?…. (so far)

Last edited 2 months ago by rayzorback
Linda

The only 2 places I’ve been wearing a mask is to the grocery store and to get my hair cut. And I wouldn’t do it there but for the fact that they won’t let you in without it. But I wear a face shield, not a mask, so not quite as bad. We’ve had family gatherings all this time and none of us wear a mask. Church requires it, so I just don’t go. I can’t sit for an hour with even just a face shield on without feeling like I’m going to pass out. I’m actually a bit disgusted that so few churches are fighting back about anything.

kalbokalbs

Complicit, supporting the mask farce. More bogus, Go along, To get along. Brainless perspective.

Last edited 2 months ago by kalbokalbs
Brave and Free

Time for a new church, if it were mine.

churchmouse

Can’t do it where I live.

Gudthots

Church down the street has a flat bed truck as a sound stage in the parking It’s sheltered by a hill side above/behind (blocking prevailing winds) and there are space heaters, carafes of coffee and very big rented lighting rigs. Was on a walk around the neighborhood last week and lingered nearby to listen. The worship was deep and I ended up kneeling on the dirty asphalt parking lot to honor my King.

Deplorable Patriot

That’s the one nice thing about being the cantor at Mass, you are exempt.

Actually, here, the guideline is wear them while walking in and out of the Church, but not in the pews.

I’d ask the people in charge, what’s the point, but I’ll just get blank stares.

Deplorable Patriot

Sad thing, I was at Adoration earlier, and the woman who has the hour after me, she’s in her late 70s, at least. She’s been all masked up since last year, and today, she was holding on to the Communion Rail, and the ends of the pews for balance. I’m REALLY not happy about this.

churchmouse

So sad that she believed the propaganda.

I will pray for her and others like her.

God did not intend for us to breathe like this.

singingsoul1

That is not new. Very not many churches in resent history fought back. Sometimes denominations made deals with the devil hoping to skate persecution. I admirer the Polish church that did not cave.
German caved twice one time under Nazi and second time under communism. I have to be fair some individual churches did not cave but were far and in between.

rayzorback

If hauled into court by our current Bidenazis……
I hope there is enough EVIDENCE to be found GUILTY of being a Christian.

Aubergine

“Never go full retard.”

~ The dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.

Tropic Thunder, probably the funniest movie I ever watched.

singingsoul1

I only wear a mask when I go physically into a store not in the parking lot. No one wears in parking lots. I never wear it out and about on the street walking or talking to neighbors or opening the door for someone who knocked on my door. No one is wearing the mask except in a store or doctor office.
No need for vet because they do not let us in the office with the pet and they come to the car to pick up the pet bring it back. Kind of silly the vet tech wearing a mask to pick up the dog from the car.
What gets me so many well educated people freak out about mask and how dangerous it is not wearing one. Wearing the mask has become a religion with them.

singingsoul1

Bingo

Sadie Slays

Finally saw double-masking in the wild recently. It’s mass hysteria at this point.
comment image

singingsoul1

I wonder if Laura had the vaccine because she looked shocked or taken back.
Fauci is a quack.

churchmouse

Did they get into swabs up the tradesmen’s entrance?

That would have been interesting …

bflyjesusgrl

1d
·

·
Memes, memes, and more memes.
If you own a business, put this sign on your front door!
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rayzorback

A few parting thoughts:

Deuteronomy 4:29
But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

Jeremiah 29:13
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

Matthew 7:7
“Ask, and it will be given to youseekand you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Luke 11:9
“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to youseekand you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

My prayer for you ALL:

Acts 15:17
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’

SteveInCO

That discussion has, believe it or not, been quite interesting to me. It reminds me of many conundrums I’ve seen posited (and not all of them are within a Christian context; Muslims have many similar arguments because they proceed from some of the same premises about the nature of Allah).

If God knows exactly what is going to happen, how, in any real sense does he have any power to change anything?

If what is meant instead is that God simply knows every consequence of the actions he is going to take, then he’s able to plan. In fact, many if not most Christians would insist that he has a plan, which in turn implies he’s set things up so they will happen according to plan.

But if that’s the case, what’s the point of intercessory prayer? By which I mean, asking God to do something? He either already plans to do it, or doing so would break his plan, and he’s not about to change that just because you’re asking him to. Especially since he knew from the beginning that someday you’d be asking! What could possibly cause him to change his perfect plan? It would be less than perfect, then.

All of this is just to say if you have perfect knowledge of the future, you have no real free will. And If you have no free will, there’s no point in someone asking you to do something for them. (Note: there’s no reason you shouldn’t give thanks. Even though God had no choice but to do what he did. But that is not ntercessory prayer.)

If you’re powerless to change your mind, can you be all powerful?

As long as one posits an all-knowing all-benevolent all-powerful God, one runs into contradictions like this, and you can argue about them forever. The only way to rid yourself of the contradictions is to rid yourself of at least one premise that led there.

rayzorback

The way I understand this “prayer” conundrum is:
Prayer is really for “us“….
We Praise and THANK him 1st of all,
Then make our requests (Hoping for a favorable outcome).

If nothing else, we are listening to the Holly Spirit that reminds us of God and our complete NEED for him. (Therefore we praise and thank him).

Basically, to keep the line of communication open 🙂

SteveInCO

Enlightening answer, thank you.

Gudthots

Have you ever read the book, “The Shack”?

The author inserts a conversation between Mac and the Holy Spirit (manifested as a woman sitting at the breakfast table with him). Mac asks the question you are writing about and her answer was very interesting. If I wanted to sum it up, it has to do with relationships.

Gudthots

Another angle I just thought of…

“We judge by the fruit.”

My experience with people that take a fatalistic response to life is that they tend to be rude, unkind, self-serving, etc. Even if they hide it under a veneer of “nice.” The heart is being guided by a world view that nearly demands they take their hands off the steering wheel, with no consequences possible.

My experience with people that perceive a relationship of interactions as being meaning inputs to the unfolding of the universe is that they are more thoughtful, more engaged, more self-disciplined, etc.

A good book exploring the concept of an unfolding universe model that allows for agency is Cynthia Bourgeault’s “The Holy Trinity and the Law of Three.”

https://wisdomwayofknowing.org/resource-directory/the-holy-trinity-excerpt/

While I can’t speak to whether the author would be considered a heretic or not, I deeply appreciated her detailed and honest attempt to explain the Gurdijeffian way of examining both the genesis and unfolding of creation.