Dear KAG: 20230117 Open Thread

Cover image: American Bald Eagle Flying-in Storm Clouds by Diana van Tankeren

Let’s see what I’ve got on this link list:

2022 Retrospective with Pepe Lives Matter.

The Unbearable Lightness of Pining Backward

Whet the Appetite for Justice

The Progressive Stranglehold on Art and Architecture

And after the disaster of a Martin Luther King memorial reveal over the weekend, there can be no doubt that that stranglehold is making a big mess.

Whistleblower Reveals What is Behind the Mass Attacks on US Food Facilities (Video)

At Least 80 Illinois County Sheriffs Will Refuse to Enforce State’s New Gun Laws

Davos Is A Grift And A Cult But It’s Also A Bid For Global Domination

Welcome to the Matt Gaetz Era of the America First Movement

Ever wonder where the ‘deep state’ came from?

What Is Capitalism? Even Conservatives Can’t Explain It

Did The Deep State Turn on Biden?

‘The most important election nobody’s ever heard of’

Take Me to Church: The Straight Dope House Republicans Need to Take Down the Deep State With Church Committee 2.0

How the Davos elite took back control

The World Economic Forum Has Invented a New Word to Describe the Extreme Chaos That Is Gripping Our Planet

Okay, it’s pretty gossipy, but….

The Supreme Court Justices Do Not Seem to Be Getting Along

Tweet hopper:

Important thread 👇

Actually, just about all of them are hybrids anymore.

Meme & Fun hopper:

Mmmmm….

Are any other cooks drooling over this?

Something to remember, always.

Per the boss’s instruction:

I’d throw in a few Rockefellers and Rothschilds also.

YEA! Youtube videos are working again!

Of course, this does not mean committing felonies, but standing up to the forces that want to tear this nation – and humanity apart. The very people XVII told us will be destroyed by the time this movie comes to an end are currently roaming the halls of power…supposedly. It’s a sickening sight.

Guidelines for posting and discussion on this site were outlined by our host, WolfM00n. Please, review them from time to time.

The discourse on this site is to be CIVIL – no name calling, baiting, or threatening others here is allowed. Those who are so inclined may visit Wolf’s other sanctuary, the U-Tree, to slog it out. There is also a “rescue” thread there for members of the Tree to rendezvous if the main site goes kablooey. A third site has been added for site outages of longer duration.

This site is a celebration of the natural rights endowed to humans by our Creator as well as those enshrined in the Bill of Rights adopted in the founding documents of the United States of America. Within the limits of law, how we exercise these rights is part of the freedom of our discussion.

Fellow tree dweller, the late Wheatie, gave us some good reminders on the basics of civility in political discourse:

  1. No food fights.
  2. No running with scissors.
  3. If you bring snacks, bring enough for everyone.

And Auntie DePat’s requests:

If you see something has not been posted, do us all a favor, and post it. Please, do not complain that it has not been done yet.

The scroll wheel on your mouse can be your friend. As mature adults, please use it here in the same manner you would in avoiding online porn.

Thank you so much for any and all attention to such details. It is GREATLY appreciated by more than one party here.

__________________________________________________

HEBREWS 6:10-20

10For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. 11And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. 13For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, 14saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” 15And thus Abraham, having patiently endured, obtained the promise. 16Men indeed swear by a greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. 17So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he interposed with an oath, 18so that through two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible that God should prove false, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the hope set before us. 19We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, 20where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest for ever after the order of Melchiz’edek.

109

Anonymous ID: hHkrVD7x No.148156632 
Nov 5 2017 20:06:36 (EST)

Anonymous ID: pqW40Wgk No.148156518 
Nov 5 2017 20:05:48 (EST)

>>148154137

St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou, Prince of the Heavenly Hosts, by the power of God, cast down to Hell Satan and all his evil spirits, who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

>>148156518
Amen brother.
Q

As always, prayers for the fight against that which seeks to enslave us are welcome. Via con Dios.

Satire

5 2 votes
Article Rating
guest
344 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

QUESTION:

How do people like the one-page (no comment paging) posts?

Better? Worse? No difference?

TheseTruths

Better!

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

Noted!

pgroup2

ThanQ!!!

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

I’ll take that as a LIKE!!!

cthulhu

I prefer the single-page version up to about 400-500 comments. If you hit that in the morning, it’d be cool to put in a page break for the next 500. If it’s two hours until midnight, the time for pagination is passed.

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

Noted!!!

RDS

One agrees with cthulhu!

scott467

I’m guessing the only reason to have a page break at all is because things slow down after x-number of posts?

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

Yes, they do. OTOH, you may or may not have to reload the page as many times.

slowcreekno

I like the one-page version. All posts on one page.

I did notice that the yellow highlighting was a little different though, after refreshing the page there were still several highlighted posts. But this isn’t any showstopper. The benefit of the single page is greater.

Last edited 22 days ago by slowcreekno
holly08

I noticed the highlighting was a little wonky too. I had read the post, left the site, came back and the posts were still highlighted.

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

The reason you’re seeing persistent highlighting, is that the highlighting is actually working properly now! When it’s forced to go cross-page, it has to start over when you refresh. When it’s all on one page, refreshing the page re-orders the posts, but the highlighting algorithm can still function, and show you what it thinks you have not seen yet.

SteveInCO · Thermonuclear MAGA

But then, I have moved my mouse over highlighted posts-dehighlighting them…and they get re-highlighted later anyway.

So clearly that either is broken, or is supposed to work differently.

SteveInCO · Thermonuclear MAGA

OK, apparently now to be sure it will “take” you have to click on the post, not just mouse-over it.

Even without that fix, however, I like this better. The orange whatchumadingus stops working when there are two or more pages, and if it reads one or two it’s often a fast way to find the recent comment–if it’s working!

rayzorback

Confirmed!
Must click somewhere in the post to remove the highlighting.
Now I can refresh the page (to zero out the orange new post counter) and the highlighting stays gone.

Last edited 21 days ago by rayzorback
SteveInCO · Thermonuclear MAGA

Oh it still goes away when I roll over it. But then…it comes baaaaaaaack…!

rayzorback

Yep.
Roll-over comes back.
Clicking the post (or “Like”) doesn’t come back for me.

Last edited 21 days ago by rayzorback
SteveInCO · Thermonuclear MAGA

I’m not sure but I think some of them might be coming back a couple of hours later, even if I do click.

rayzorback

I agree…. same is happening to me
But only if I refresh the page.
No refresh…. removed highlighting stays gone. At least for now.

Last edited 21 days ago by rayzorback
kalbokalbs

Yea. Refresh seems to be the key on my laptop.

Easy to deal with. Short of shutting down, I don’t “refresh”.

kalbokalbs

Better.

barkerjim

Better!

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

You may need to actually click in or near the comments. I’ll look at it more closely to see if things make sense in any way.

kalbokalbs

Even when we had pages, I’d notice some posts that had transitioned yellow highlight, to clear, would revert to yellow highlight. More so now. Not a big deal to me.

Single page, in my narrow world, more functional – simplistic.

kalbokalbs

“Click” as opposed to simply mousing over a post, seems to have worked better for me. INCLUDING, before pages went away a few days ago. Noted this months ago.

TradeBait2

Better. 👍

gil00

I may be one of the few who visit via mobile, not pc. I have noticed that the pages are loading slower and slower the more twitter and videos there are. Didnt used to be an issue. Not sure if no page break will matter, except if im looking for a comment. Part of my slowdown for commenting has been this reason. Im neutral.

kalbokalbs

Nearly always on a laptop.

The odd ball times I use a cell, it is a pain in the ass. Inefficient, is an understatement.

In my case, the issue is a combination of a stoopid small screen (Samsung S21, I think), AND my truly being a slow guy.

Occasionally “signal” is an issue, but then that effects many sites I’d visit. <<< That I blame on Verizon, delivering increasingly crappy service. <<< Verizon is next to be “fired”.

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

I may just turn off embeds on mobile. I turned that setting on recently to test what it’s like to have embeds show up on phones. I was kinda neutral about it.

gil00

Im verizon too. Other wifi connection issues that have always persisted. Maybe thats a contributing factor.

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

OK – this is because of a DIFFERENT setting, which allows embeds to work on mobile. Would it help you if I turned that off? You will see links instead of embeds.

gil00

Perhaps it will. If i see a note on individual post of what it is it may be better, or when i see daily its just a link. If you do that ill let you know. If no difference then you know it may be my service.

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

OK – I’ll do it later – you should notice the effect immediately.

gil00

👍👍

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

OK – mobile embeds are turned off!

Aubergine

I like it.

rayzorback

As I scroll down the page looking for new posts….
I roll over them as I read them (This removes the highlighting).
When I have read them all (All highlights removed)…
I refresh the page to reset the orange bubble in the lower right corner.
Go back through he page and the highlights have returned untill I do it again?

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

Shouldn’t be that bad!

SteveInCO · Thermonuclear MAGA

That’s basically what I am seeing too.

phoenixrising

I ‘like’ …

nikkichico7

Better 😎👍🇺🇸❤️🇺🇸 ..

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

Clare Craig does an EXCELLENT thread about the fact that most vaccine long-term effects actually show up MONTHS later – not days.

TheseTruths

So it pays to observe patterns and be skeptical in the meantime. It also doesn’t help that I don’t trust those who would be doing the studies.

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

Amen!

scott467

“The Pandemrix vaccine, which was rushed out during the 2009 swine flu ‘pandemic’ caused narcolepsy in teenagers.”

_____________

Are they sure the teenagers weren’t just faking that, to get out of school?

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

They were sleeping during MALL TIME! Very scandalous!

scott467

When we were in high school, we used to prank our friends with ‘sleeper’s disease’ while driving.

The driver would say something like “I don’t know what’s wrong with me, suddenly I feel really sleepy”, and then slump forward like he was unconscious, with the top of his head holding down the horn button.

And then keep driving that way for 5 or 10 seconds, while the people in the back seat freak out. Then sit up quickly and say “What happened?!? What happened?! Why is everybody shouting?!?” 😂

It’s best to have someone who’s in on the joke in the front passenger seat, to grab the steering wheel if necessary, just in case.

We used to have so much fun when we were young… 😁

Last edited 22 days ago by scott467
Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

Pranksters!

Valerie Curren

reminds me of turning off the headlights on long straight stretches of highway–adolescence AND adrenaline 🙂

scott467

Now that sounds dangerous — unless their eyesight and night vision, being young, was far better than most of our vision is now.

In what I described above, there was (mostly) only the perception of danger.

Any real danger was mitigated by the front seat passenger being able to grab the wheel if the driver accidentally veered off the road or towards oncoming traffic 😉

Valerie Curren

Well the times that I did the lights off it was for Very brief periods…not sure about other people though.

cthulhu

Wait, what were we talking about?

Oh, driving automobiles….never mind….

Valerie Curren

LOL 🙂 no further comments needed!

cthulhu

I get confused sometimes….

Valerie Curren

as do we all…

pgroup2

And all y’all thought The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test was an instruction book.

scott467

Before my time, but it looks interesting! 👍😁

RDS

So now it will be seen if a “new booster shot” — by Glaxo-Smith-Kline with Sanofi Pasteur and in use overseas, along with the company’s “primary series” viral vector COVID-19 “vaccine” — has any adverse reactions.
Pandemrix was made by GSK.

https://ema.europa.eu/medicines/human/EPAR/vidprevtyn-beta

Of course, the very first statement in the EMA article is that this product is a “vaccine for preventing coronavirus disease (COVID-19) in people aged 18 years and older.”
So the first lie about the “efficacy” of this “vaccine” is put out to lull the public into believing the “new snake oil” will protect them from infection.
IMO, any COVID-19 “vaccine” that says “viral vector” or “adenoviral” can perhaps be thought of as another version of the Johnson & Johnson (Janssen) products — with perhaps the same potential for thrombosis and thrombocytopenia.
Here’s the FDA-issued fact sheet on the Johnson & Johnson (Janssen) “vaccine”:
http://www.fda.gov/media/146304/download

scott467

“So the first lie about the “efficacy” of this “vaccine” is put out to lull the public into believing the “new snake oil” will protect them from infection.”

_______________

IVM.

All of the good, and none of the bad 👍

TheseTruths

comment image

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

TRUTH!!!

TheseTruths

comment image

TheseTruths

For TradeBait…

comment image

TradeBait2

🤣 🤣 🤣 . 👍

We did. True story. We also did at friends during the annual fall egg wars and TP’ing the coaches’ and principals’ houses.

I can get away with telling it now…

pgroup2

You better hope they didn’t extend the statute of limitations.  😂 

Last edited 21 days ago by pgroup2
Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

DAMN ECO-CRIMINAL RESOURCE HOOLIGANS!!!

TheseTruths

It would be a lot more expensive now!

rayzorback

I watched a Jeff Dunham clip yesterday….
Had a new millennial “Dummy” and said something to the effect of:
Back in my day Water was free and you had to pay for porn…..
It is the opposite today.

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

HA!!!

kalbokalbs

Good times were had, TP’n a home.  🙂 

Last edited 21 days ago by kalbokalbs
SteveInCO · Thermonuclear MAGA

Someone tried to do that to us one time, we simply let the German shepherd loose. The dog would likely have licked them to death but they rapidly decided to be elsewhere.

singingsoul1

Years ago some kids tried to break into our Van . Our dog heard noise we opened the door and like a blitz the dog was gone chasing kids down the street screaming. The dog was a Terri doodle and had a nasty streek in him specially if someone was running away. Never had a problem again 🙂

rayzorback

Had our yard “Forked” once when my kids were in High School…
comment image/revision/latest?cb=20101019133922

rayzorback

Plastic forks Everywhere!

SteveInCO · Thermonuclear MAGA

I’ve heard of forks in the road, and snakes in the grass, and even snakes on the road (those are usually good for having Steve Irwin hit the brakes to rescue the snake), but never forks in the grass.

rayzorback

It is a “thing”.
I’ve seen it and Google even has posts about it.
Google: forked yard prank

TheseTruths

The Hunter Biden “clean the garage” meme and the Sen. Kennedy “reality calls” meme are 😂.

TheseTruths

comment image

TheseTruths

Will anyone listen or do anything?

comment image

scott467

“Will anyone listen or do anything?”

______________

Maybe try calling 1-800-Military?

Maybe get a searchlight, and put an image of the Constitution over it — like a Bat-signal — and shine it over U.S. military bases?

TheseTruths

Here’s why that hasn’t worked. It’s the number for Geico’s military discount. 😂

To take advantage of GEICO’s military discount call (800) MILITARY (645-4827). GEICO also offers a number of other potential discounts in all 50 states—call us to see which discounts you may be eligible for.

https://www.geico.com/information/military/about/faq/

scott467

Maybe it’s 1-888 instead of 1-800?

TheseTruths

👍🏼

TheseTruths

“Choose wisely”

comment image

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

Most excellent!!!

SteveInCO · Thermonuclear MAGA

Shouldn’t the colors be reversed? Natural gas burns blue, electric stove coils glow red.

If they ever glow blue, don’t even bother with a fire extinquisher; you’ve probably already received a lethal dose of X rays and your electric bill will equal the value of your house.

TheseTruths

Good point, but I think they wanted the gas to be the red pill.

TheseTruths

comment image

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

Great thinking!

Aubergine

I think you should buy a cow, cat.

TheseTruths

Scientists redirect lightning strikes using a weather-controlling super laser
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fstudyfinds.org%2Fredirect-lightning-super-laser%2F

Scientists in France have created a way to divert lightning strikes using a weather-controlling super laser.

Researchers with the Polytechnic Institute of Paris guided the strikes from thunderclouds to places where they don’t cause damage. The team says the new technique could save power stations, airports, launchpads, and other buildings from disaster.

The system creates a virtual lightning rod, metal conductors that intercept flashes and guide their currents into the ground…

The five-ton device is about the size of a large car and fires up to a thousand pulses per second. The scientists installed it near a telecommunications tower in the Swiss Alps – which is struck by lightning around 100 times a year.

“A powerful laser aimed at the sky can create a virtual lightning rod and divert the path of lightning strikes,” Dr. Houard tells SWNS. “The findings may pave the way for better lightning protection methods for critical infrastructure – such as power stations, airports and launchpads.”

Lightning rods were invented by Benjamin Franklin in 1752 as part of his groundbreaking exploration of electricity, and they’re still in use today. However, installing them is often impractical. They only combat the direct effects of lightning strikes and can cause electromagnetic interference and voltage surges in devices and appliances.

“Acting as a virtual, movable rod, a laser beam directed at the sky could offer an alternative,” Dr. Houard continues…

So can they make lightning strike something on purpose as well?

cthulhu

Lightning follows a path of ionized gas. Ionizing air generally makes it warmer, so it starts rising and breaking-up — thus producing weird zig-zags in the bolt.

They’re talking about using a laser to ionize the air. Yes, theoretically, they could steer it a bit. Most likely, they’d steer the lightning to hit the laser.

TheseTruths

Good. I take it there should be no theories about someone causing lightning to strike a food processing plant or something because it wouldn’t be scientific.

cthulhu

I could think of a couple of ways to try to do that. I’m not sure how successful they’d be.

cthulhu

Just spitballin’ — the laser can provide an ionized path for the lightning to travel. It can provide it from the source or to the destination, but it will start out as a straight line either way.

If you want to put the laser at the source, that is inside a storm cloud and there isn’t some big knob in there that says “100MV, connect here.” Lightning happens when enough charge just happens to collect in the right place. Further, the laser would have to be of a wavelength that ionizes the air but can go through the mist of the cloud….and it might not reach all the way to the ground.

If you want to put the laser at the destination for protection, that seems pretty straightforward — shoot it through a large grounded fork and over the protected area. When the bolt hits the ionized gas, it’d shunt onto the laser track, then peel off onto the fork and to the ground. Your laser wouldn’t be continually hit by lightning bolts because the fork would ground them, so your fifth-level Mage would be thwarted.

If you want to put the laser at the destination for destruction, however, you’d probably need some sort of tower at the target, where you could shoot the laser right next to the tower. Alternatively, you might have some sort of mirror installed at the target that you could bounce the laser off of (most lightning doesn’t bounce).

pgroup2

What happens when satellites pass through the laser? How about the space station and the people in it?

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

If the laser is efficiently ionizing the atmosphere, it should lose most of its intensity long before it gets there. Also, just the distance widens the beam considerably at that distance, too, weakening it. But good question!

Last edited 21 days ago by Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy
Gingersmom2009

I have to try and post this – hilarious. Hope it works. Oh well. It’s Charlie Brown church. 😂

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1903605409989534

Last edited 22 days ago by Gingersmom2009
scott467

There is no Scripture to support any of what they’re doing, it’s all emotionalism.

And worse, it gives occasion to others to mock.

There shouldn’t be any musical instruments in worship. And there weren’t, until one of the Popes (Vitalian?) introduced the organ, in the 600s A.D., if I remember correctly.

The original churches of Christ had singing only. The term a capella means in the way of the chapel, or in the way of the church, which was singing only.

Not with any special or separate choir, it was the whole congregation who sang.

No Protestant churches had musical instruments, and their leaders were adamantly against musical instruments in Christian worship, because there is no example of musical instruments in Christian worship in the New Testament.

In addition to God’s Word (which is Authoritative), there are also multiple quotes from secular sources (music history sources, encyclopedias, including Roman Catholic encyclopedias), and quotes from historically influential men on the subject including Thomas Aquinas, and back to Clement of Alexandria, and Justin Martyr.

The founders of many of the largest denominations (Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc.) ALL condemned instrumental music in worship, and all for the same reason, because it is not found in God’s Word and was not part of Christian worship in the 1st century.

But many Protestant churches have returned to many of the practices which led to the Protestant Reformation in the first place.

scott467

Thank you for the reply, I will attempt to answer each of the replies to my post in a way that is honest, sincere and edifying.

.

“If it’s all for the greater glory of God, why wouldn’t it be allowed?”

____________

This type of question might be referred to as the “If God does not expressly forbid something, then He must accept it” school of thought.

If we really think about it for a moment, I think everyone can see the problems with that approach.

Why did God not accept Cain’s offering?

Was Cain’s offering made in accordance with God’s will, or in accordance with Cain’s will?

.

“In the first century, the Church was still underground and amazingly poor. Any liturgical music would have been handed down from the Jews. And that’s a form of chant.”

____________

We are fortunate in that we can know exactly how the 1st century church conducted itself in this regard, and what was God’s will in that regard, because the Scriptures tell us, so there is no need to speculate.

There is only one mention of the word ‘chant’ in the entire KJV:

………………….
“That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David;” (Amos 6:5, KJV)
………………….

Amos, of course, is in the OT, and musical instruments were a part of OT Jewish worship. There are of course many things which were approved by God in OT Jewish worship which are not approved by God in New Testament Christian worship. Sacrificing of animals on an altar being one of the more obvious examples.

So OT Jewish worship and NT Christian worship are distinct from one another. The Jews were under the Old Law, the Law of Moses, whereas Christ fulfilled the Law, and ended it (cf. Romans 10:4), nailing it to His cross (cf. Colossians 2:14), and became “the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises” (Hebrews 8:6b, KJV), a New Testament in His blood (cf. Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25).

……………….
“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” (Galatians 3:24-25, KJV)
………………..

Of course there are many other verses and passages showing plainly that we in the present Christian New Testament era are not under the Old Law, the Law of the Jews, a.k.a. the Law of Moses, so I will focus on New Testament Christian worship.

These are all 7 of the references to singing in the New Testament, and not one includes the use of any instrument besides the human voice (boldface mine):

…………………………
“Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.” (Hebrews 2:12, KJV)

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” (Colossians 3:16)

“And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.” (Acts 16:25)

“Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;” (Ephesians 5:19)

“Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.” (James 5:13)

“What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.” (1 Corinthians 14:15)

“And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.” (Matt 26:30)
…………………………

If there is any approved example, by Apostle or by Christ, for the use of a musical instrument of any kind in Christian worship, I have not seen it.

.

“Even the chant that’s used now didn’t exist in the first century.”

_____________

If the chant used now did not exist in the first century, then by who’s authority was it added to Christian worship?

Was it added by God, or by man?

If it was added by God, where is the book, chapter and verse for it?

And if it was added by some man, what man knows better than God how God wants to be worshipped?

.

“It developed, along with written music, as the Church grew.”

___________

Is the church Christ’s church, is He the founder and owner of it? Is all authority (power) not given unto him, both in heaven and in earth? (cf. Matthew 28:18)

Unless anyone claims that Christ delegated His authority to some man, then from where does anyone obtain the authority to ‘develop’ or ‘change’ or ‘add to’ or ‘subtract from’ one jot or tittle of God’s Word, His will and Testament?

It is a critical question. We either have authority to add to or subtract from God’s Word, or we do not.

If we do not, then by definition, Christian worship today should be identical to Christian worship in the 1st century.

If any would claim that we do have authority to ‘add to’ or ‘subtract from’ God’s Word as we see fit, where is that authority?

If it is found in God’s Word, what is the book, chapter and verse?

And if any such authority is claimed from outside of God’s Word, what is it, and who is the author of it?

If the author any such claim is not God, then whoever the author might be, is he not the author of his own church, and not Christ’s? Is that author going to save us also? Did that author die on the cross for our salvation?

.

“The history is intertwined. You can’t find a history of music textbook without the Church Fathers and Doctors being mentioned.”

_________

But that’s hardly the same as citing Authority for adding to, or subtracting from, the very Word of God, is it?

Just because some member of the church said or did something 500 years ago, or 1,000 years ago, what does that have to do with Authority to add or subtract from God’s Word?

Is age a substitute for Authority? For example, if someone who self identified as a member of the church claimed that everyone should wear a propeller beanie in worship, and that claim was buried and undiscovered for 1,000 years, only to be discovered yesterday, does the claim have authority because it was made 1,000 years ago?

Does the passage of time confer Authority to add to or subtract from God’s Word?

Or does the Authority for Christian worship remain with God, now and always?

What man can know better what God wants, than God?

What man can speak with more Authority than those who spoke by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in the Scriptures?

The Scriptures, by the providence of God, have been preserved for us, and we have them. Who will add to them, or subtract from them?

What man in this world can legitimately claim the authority to do such a thing?

.

“Two of the Great Doctors, St. Ambrose and St. Gregory, have systems named for them.”

______________

Was their ‘Great Doctor’ status conferred upon them by God — or by men?

Did Gregory or Ambrose die on the cross for our sins?

If the answer is “yes”, then perhaps some would follow after them.

But if the answer is “no”, then why does anyone follow after them?

.

“Actually, the organ is the only non-vocal instrument that is SUPPOSED to be allowed as it is neither male nor female in nature.”

______________

Supposed to be allowed by whom?

Which man will raise his hand and say “I speak for God, and I say the organ is allowed”?

That many have done so across time is plainly evident, and that many have followed after those men is likewise evident.

But are both not shocking, in hindsight?

.

“Technically, we aren’t supposed to have all the orchestral stuff for Mass itself.”

_____________

Technically (or otherwise) according to whom?

If ‘mass’ is part of Christian worship, certainly God would have included it in His Word, and the apostles would have practiced it, correct?

How many times the word “mass” is found in God’s Word? Even though the Old Testament is not for Christian worship, it is evident that many have tried to drag elements of Jewish worship into Christian worship, so for purposes of this question, please consider the entirety of the Old Testament and the New in your answer.

.

“But, it’s for the greater Glory of God.”

_____________

Does that not sound like a catch-all justification, which may be invoked to rationalize or explain just about anything?

Is it possible to glorify God through disobedience?

Is it possible to glorify God through (self) will worship?

Did it work for Cain?

Did it work for Nadab and Abihu when they used ‘strange fire’, i.e., fire from an unauthorized source? (cf. Leviticus 10:1)

If there is any example where God accepted practices in worship which are not according to His Word in Scripture, what is that example?

.

“We haven’t heard from the mystics and apparition recipients that it’s not pleasing to God.”

_______________

Is there any authority or example in God’s Word to do as we please, and if God doesn’t like it, He will let us know — through mystic and apparition recipients, or otherwise?

Are ‘mystics and apparition recipients’ an authority in the Lord’s church?

How would anyone ever know or verify whether they were inspired by God? Was this problem not evident throughout Scripture, the necessity of verifying what various prophets or teachers said was actually true?

.

“The thing is, as music developed – and in some specific chapels the music remained a cappella – so did instrumentation and musicianship as a profession.”

______________

By what authority do the members of the congregation relinquish their part in singing during worship, turning it over to ‘professional’ musicians?

By what authority do any musicians ‘develop’ (add to, change or alter in any way) Christian worship?

.

“Some of the greatest music we have – Vivaldi is a prime example – came from the effort to teach musicianship as a profession to girls, actually, to keep them off the streets.”

_______________

That is wonderful, but what does it have to do with adding musical instruments to Christian worship?

.

“In that way, it’s a good thing. It should be inviting and inspiring to God.”

_____________

Is it for us (you or I) to tell God what should be inviting and inspiring to Him?

Last edited 21 days ago by scott467
cthulhu

It would seem to me that establishing a parallel between OT use animal sacrifice vs. the New Covenant of the NT no longer requiring such sacrifice, due to the ultimate and perfect sacrifice of Christ….and the OT use of musical instruments no longer being useful….would somehow require that we all were granted perfect pitch in our unaccompanied singing voices.

Valerie Curren

LOL on the perfect pitch comment 🙂

scott467

There are many examples of OT Jewish practices or doctrines which are not found in NT Christian practice or doctrine, I just chose one (i.e., animal sacrifice) that stands out particularly well, in order to make the point 👍

One of the early and frequent problems in the church was preventing people from trying to Judaize the church.

One prominent example is when some of the Jewish converts tried to bind circumcision on the Gentiles:

…………………
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts 15:1, KJV)
…………………

.

Which eventually led to the issuance of a letter to the churches, the entirety of which is contained in Acts chapter 15.

Who was the letter issued by?

The Apostles, men chosen personally by Jesus Christ. Sometimes people refer to themselves as “ambassadors for Christ”, but that is not correct.

An ambassador is one who is chosen to represent someone in Authority.

ambassador
noun

1) A diplomatic official of the highest rank appointed and accredited as representative in residence by one government or sovereign to another, usually for a specific length of time.

2) A diplomatic official heading his or her country’s permanent mission to certain international organizations, such as the United Nations.

3) An authorized messenger or representative.

.

Paul the Apostle was an ambassador for Christ, because he was personally chosen by Christ, as were the other Apostles:

…………………..
“And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, [20] For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.” (Ephesians 6:19-20, KJV, boldface mine)
…………………..

.

No one on earth today (or since the last Apostle died) can credibly claim to be an ‘ambassador’ for Christ.

Was the letter about circumcision issued to the churches of their own human counsel, or God’s counsel?

The fact that it is in Scripture means it is and was by inspiration of God, but we are also told the same directly here:

……………………….
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;” (Acts 15:28, KJV, boldface mine)
……………………….

.

The Authority in matters of God rests with God, not with men.

Last edited 21 days ago by scott467
cthulhu

So there were OT practices which were not mentioned in the NT, but still applied (e.g. Ten Commandments); OT practices mentioned in the NT as no longer applicable (e.g. circumcision, animal sacrifice); and — as you hold — OT practices not mentioned in the NT that should no longer apply.

It seems to me that there is a bit of hubris in that last. Certainly in the world of the Apostles, there may very well have been a “deal with things with what you have” approach — and one has difficulty imagining Paul schlepping his way on his journeys with a viol strapped across his back….but maybe he failed to mention musical instruments because they were secondary to his mission, not that there was a particular thing one way or the other…..

Valerie Curren

One thing you quote from the NT refers to Psalms & hymns & spiritual songs. Referring to Psalms (multiple times) in the NT Could also mean to reference the Book of Psalms, in their entirety, for insight into appropriate worship, so the musical instruments Could potentially be considered appropriate for NT based worship.

We have to worship God in spirit & in truth…

I appreciate how you consistently refer to the Word of God as the final (& only) authority. God Bless!

scott467

“One thing you quote from the NT refers to Psalms & hymns & spiritual songs. Referring to Psalms (multiple times) in the NT Could also mean to reference the Book of Psalms, in their entirety, for insight into appropriate worship, so the musical instruments Could potentially be considered appropriate for NT based worship.”

_____________

It could, it’s a potential possibility, so it’s certainly worth exploring further, to find out whether there is any Scriptural support for that possibility.

Suppose we stipulate that the psalms being referenced are indeed from the Book of Psalms.

Of the 7 verses in the NT referencing singing in worship, here are the 3 which referenced psalms:

…………………………
“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” (Colossians 3:16)

.

“Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;” (Ephesians 5:19)

.

“Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.” (James 5:13)
…………………………

In each case, is the instruction not to sing?

Is there any mention of musical instruments of any kind?

I hope that no one would get the impression that this subject or controversy is of my own conception, it is quite ancient.

I will start with a few secular encyclopedias, a Roman Catholic encyclopedia, and then the founders or founding documents of several denominations, and then the words of early church leaders, back to the time when there was living memory of the Apostles.

I will include the words of Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Eusebius, Augustine, Chrysostom, Aquinas, Luther, Erasmus, Calvin, Beza, Spurgeon, Wesley and Clarke, for those who are interested in the comments by these influential men.

They are not Authoritative because their comments are not inspired by God, but it is interesting to see the source of their objection to musical instruments, and how strongly they opposed it.

.
.

“The Christian community held the same view, as we know from the apostolic and post-apostolic literature: instrumental music was thought unfit for religious services; the Christian sources are quite outspoken in their condemnation of instrumental performances. Originally, only song was considered worthy of direct approach to Divinity.” (New Oxford History of Music: The Music of Post-Biblical Judaism I, 135)

.

“There can be no doubt that originally the music of the divine service was everywhere entirely of a vocal nature.” (Emil Nauman, The History of Music)

.

“If instrumental music was not part of early Christian worship, when did it become acceptable? Several reference works will help us see the progression of this practice among churches: “Pope Vitalian introduced an organ in the church in the seventh century to aid the singing but it was opposed and was removed.” (James Hasting, Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics.)

.

“The church, although lapsing more and more into deflection from the truth and into a corrupting of apostolic practice, had not instrumental music for 1200 years (that is, it was not in general use before this time); The Calvinistic Reform Church ejected it from its service as an element of popery, even the church of England having come very nigh its extrusion from her worship. It is heresy in the sphere of worship.” (John Giradeau, Presbyterian prof., Columbia Theological Seminary, Instrumental Music, p. 179)

.

“This species, which is the most natural, is to be considered to have existed before any other… Instrumental music is also of very ancient date, its invention being ascribed to Tubal, the sixth descendant from Cain. The instrumental music was not practiced by the primitive Christians, but was an aid to devotion of later times, is evident from church history.” (Fessenden’s Encyclopedia of Art and Music, p. 852)

.

“Pope Vitalian is related to have first introduced organs into some of the churches of Western Europe about 670 but the earliest trustworthy account is that of one sent as a present by the Greek emperor Constantine Copronymus to Pepin, king of Franks in 755” (American Encyclopedia Vol 12, p. 688)

.

“The organ is said to have been first introduced into church music by Pope Vitalian in 666. In 757, a great organ was sent as a present to Pepin by the Byzantine Emperor, Constantine, and placed in the church St. Corneille as Compiegne.” (Chambers Encyclopedia, Vol. 7, p. 112)

.

“…the first Christians were of too spiritual a fibre to substitute lifeless instruments for or to use them to accompany the human voice. Clement of Alexandria severely condemns the use of instruments even at Christian banquets. St. Chrysostum sharply contrasts the customs of the Christians when they had full freedom with those of the Jews of the Old Testament.” (Catholic Encyclopedia Vol 10, p. 648-652.)

.

“The rejection of all musical instruments for Christian worship is consistent among the Fathers. They were associated with pagan, orgiastic rites.” (New Catholic Encyclopedia: History of Sacred Music, X, 106)

.

“For almost a thousand years Gregorian chant, without any instrumental or harmonic addition was the only music used in connection with the liturgy. The organ, in its primitive and rude form, was the first, and for a long time the sole, instrument used to accompany the chant… The church has never encouraged and at most only tolerated the use of instruments… She holds up as her ideal the unaccompanied chant, and polyphonic, a-capella style. The Sistine Chapel has not even an organ.” (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 10, p. 657-688)

.

And now the words of leaders and influential men of many churches, all the way back to Justin Martyr, circa 139 AD.

.
.

CHARLES H. SPURGEON, 1834-1892AD, Baptist: “Praise the Lord with the harp. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes. We do not need them. They would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument like the human voice.” (Psalms 42:4 commentary)

SPURGEON: “David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, bellows, and pipes! We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it.”

Charles Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle. Never were mechanical instruments of music used. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. “I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.” He then declared: “I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery.”

ALBERT H. NEWMAN: “In 1699 the Baptists received an invitation from Thomas Clayton, rector of Christ Church, to unite with the Church of England. They replied in a dignified manner, declining to do so unless he could prove, “that the Church of Christ under the New Testament may consist or . . . a mixed multitude and their seed, even all the members of a nation, . . . whether they are godly or ungodly,” that “lords, archbishops, etc., . . . are of divine institution and appointment,” and that their vestments, liturgical services, use of mechanical instruments, infant baptism, sprinkling, “signing with the cross in baptism,” etc., are warranted by Scripture.” … ”

NEWMAN: “It may be interesting to note that this church (First Baptist Church of Newport, organized in 1644) was one of the first to introduce instrumental music. The instrument was a bass viol and caused considerable commotion. This occurred early in the nineteenth century.” (A History of the Baptist Churches in the United States, American Baptist Publication Society 1915, p. 207, 255)

.

PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH:
“Question 6. Is there any authority for instrumental music in the worship of God under the present dispensation? Answer. Not the least, only the singing of psalms and hymns and spiritual songs was appointed by the apostles; not a syllable is said in the New Testament in favor of instrumental music nor was it ever introduced into the Church until after the eighth century, after the Catholics had corrupted the simplicity of the gospel by their carnal inventions. It was not allowed in the Synagogues, the parish churches of the Jews, but was confined to the Temple service and was abolished with the rites of that dispensation.” (Questions on the Confession of Faith and Form of Government of The Presbyterian Church in the United States of America, published by the Presbyterian Board of Publications, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 1842, p. 55)

.

Methodist Church — ADAM CLARKE, 1760-1832AD, Methodist and Bible Scholar: “But were it even evident, which it is not, either from this or any other place in the sacred writings, that instruments of music were prescribed by divine authority under the law, could this be adduced with any semblance of reason, that they ought to be used in Christian worship? No; the whole spirit, soul, and genius of the Christian religion are against this; and those who know the Church of God best, and what constitutes its genuine spiritual state, know that these things have been introduced as a substitute for the life and power of religion; and that where they prevail most, there is least of the power of Christianity. Away with such portentous baubles from the worship of that infinite Spirit who requires His followers to worship Him in spirit and truth, for to no such worship are these instruments friendly.” (Clarke’s Commentary, Vol. II, pp. 690-691)

CLARKE: “I am an old man, and I here declare that I never knew them to be productive of any good in the worship of God, and have reason to believe that they are productive of much evil. Music as a science I esteem and admire, but instrumental music in the house of God I abominate and abhor. This is the abuse of music, and I here register my protest against all such corruption of the worship of the author of Christianity.” (Commentary, IV, 686, on Amos 6:5)

.

JOHN WESLEY, 1703-1791AD, Methodist, a founder of “Methodism”: “I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard.” (quoted in Adam Clarke’s Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685)

.

THEODORE BEZA, 1519-1605AD, successor to John Calvin: “If the apostle justly prohibits the use of unknown tongues in the church, much less would he have tolerated these artificial musical performances which are addressed to the ear alone, and seldom strike the understanding even of the performers themselves.” (Girardeau’s Instrumental Music, p. 166)

.

JOHN CALVIN, 1509-1564AD, influenced Presbyterianism & Reformed Baptists: “Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (1 Cor. 14:16) What shall we then say of chanting, which fills the ears with nothing but an empty sound?” (Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33)

.

MARTIN LUTHER, 1483-1546AD: “The organ in the worship is the insignia of Baal… The Roman Catholic borrowed it from the Jews.” (Martin Luther, Mcclintock & Strong’s Encyclopedia Volume VI, page 762)

.

DESIDERIUS ERASMUS, 1466-1536AD: “We have brought into our churches certain operatic and theatrical music; such a confused, disorderly chattering of some words as I hardly think was ever in any of the Grecian or Roman theatres. The church rings with the noise of trumpets, pipes, and dulcimers; and human voices strive to bear their part with them. Men run to church as to a theatre, to have their ears tickled. And for this end organ makers are hired with great salaries, and a company of boys, who waste all their time learning these whining tones.” (Erasmus, Commentary on 1 Corinthians 14:19)

.

THOMAS AQUINAS, 1225-1274AD: “Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaize.” (Aquinas, Bingham’s Antiquities Vol 3, p. 137)

.

AUGUSTINE, 354AD: “…musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship.” (on singing at Alexandria under Athanasius)

.

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM, 347-407AD: “David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody.” (Chrysostom, Commentary on Psalm 41)

.

EUSEBIUS, 260-340AD “Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days… We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms.” (Psalm 91:2-3)

.

TERTULLIAN, 200AD “Musical concerts with viol and lute belong to Apollo, to the Muses, to Minerva and Mercury who invented them; ye who are Christians, hate and abhor these things whose very authors themselves must be the object of loathing and aversion.”

.

CLEMENT of ALEXANDRIA, 150-216AD: “Leave the pipe to the shepherd, the flute to the men who are in fear of gods and intent on their idol worshipping. Such musical instruments must be excluded from our wingless feasts, for they arc more suited for beasts and for the class of men that is least capable of reason than for men. The Spirit, to purify the divine liturgy from any such unrestrained revelry chants: ‘Praise Him with sound of trumpet,” for, in fact, at the sound of the trumpet the dead will rise again; praise Him with harp,’ for the tongue is a harp of the Lord; ‘and with the lute. praise Him.’ understanding the mouth as a lute moved by the Spirit as the lute is by the plectrum; ‘praise Him with timbal and choir,’ that is, the Church awaiting the resurrection of the body in the flesh which is its echo; ‘praise Him with strings and organ,’ calling our bodies an organ and its sinews strings, for from them the body derives its Coordinated movement, and when touched by the Spirit, gives forth human sounds; ‘praise Him on high-sounding cymbals,’ which mean the tongue of the mouth which with the movement of the lips, produces words. Then to all mankind He calls out, ‘Let every spirit praise the Lord,’ because He rules over every spirit He has made. In reality, man is an instrument arc for peace, but these other things, if anyone concerns himself overmuch with them, become instruments of conflict, for inflame the passions.”

.

“The Etruscans, for example, use the trumpet for war; the Arcadians, the horn; the Sicels, the flute; the Cretans, the lyre; the Lacedemonians, the pipe; the Thracians, the bugle; the Egyptians, the drum; and the Arabs, the cymbal. But as for us, we make use of one instrument alone: only the Word of peace by whom we pay homage to God, no longer with ancient harp or trumpet or drum or flute which those trained for war employ.” (190AD, The instructor, Fathers of the church, p. 130)

.

CLEMENT of ALEXANDRIA, 150-216AD: “Moreover, King David the harpist, whom we mentioned just above, urged us toward the truth and away from idols. So far was he from singing the praises of daemons that they were put to flight by him with the true music; and when Saul was Possessed, David healed him merely by playing the harp. The Lord fashioned man a beautiful, breathing instrument, after His own imaged and assuredly He Himself is an all-harmonious instrument of God, melodious and holy, the wisdom that is above this world, the heavenly Word.” … “He who sprang from David and yet was before him, the Word of God, scorned those lifeless instruments of lyre and cithara. By the power of the Holy Spirit He arranged in harmonious order this great world, yes, and the little world of man too, body and soul together; and on this many-voiced instruments of the universe He makes music to God, and sings to the human instrument. “For thou art my harp and my pipe and my temple” (185AD, Readings, p. 62)

.

And finally, from approximately 40 years after the Apostle John is thought to have left this world, within the timeframe of living memory of people who KNEW JOHN the Apostle *personally*:

JUSTIN MARTYR, 139AD: “The use of [instrumental] music was not received in the Christian churches, as it was among the Jews, in their infant state, but only the use of plain song…. Simply singing is not agreeable to children [the aforementioned Jews], but singing with lifeless instruments and with dancing and clapping is. On this account the use of this kind of instruments and of others agreeable to children is removed from the songs of the churches, and there is left remaining simply singing.”

.

And yet, despite ALL of the above, even after showing it to people, you might be amazed at the resistance you are likely to encounter, if you suggest that it would be well to stop using musical instruments in worship.

Even though the FOUNDERS of *their own denomination* say they should not be doing it, or Thomas Aquinas in the case of the RCC, or early church members like Eusebius, Tertullian, and Clement, and Justin, in writing (as quoted above), often it won’t matter.

In the end, it’s usually not facts or evidence or reason that matters, at least not the first couple times one is exposed to something. In that regard, is it any different than the frustration and difficulty we have all experienced with friends and family who won’t look at the truth about the vaxx, no matter how we try to show them?

If their heart is hardened, or if their eyes and ears are closed, what can we say that will open them?

It’s the same thing with Christian topics. I can’t change anyone’s mind, but I don’t have to. If the opportunity is presented, all I have to do is present the truth to the best of my ability. Plant the seed. Maybe this is the first time someone here has thought about this subject.

There is always the possibility that someone will look at the entirety of the evidence, and decide to make a change to be in accordance with Scripture, in accordance with God’s will, and we never know unless we try.

Even if it’s just one person who does, that person matters.

And if no one does, that’s okay too.

People have a tendency to want to do what they want to do, we all do, and once error gets a foothold, once it is established or becomes “tradition”, it can be very difficult (or nearly impossible) to put a stop to it.

Which is one of the reasons it’s so important to guard against error in the first place.

And it can be hard to bring a subject up, anytime some practice or belief is not according to Scripture, so oftentimes people don’t. Nobody wants to be disliked for bringing up things people would rather not examine.

But a Christian should, if the opportunity is presented. If we care about God’s Word, and if we care about our brothers and sisters in Christ, or those who might become brothers and sisters in Christ, we should. We should at least try.

And if he (or she) gets called out for doing so — and in my experience we always will, so just expect it — just be prepared to stand on God’s Word, let God’s Word to the heavy lifting, and reason directly from the Scriptures, as we are given many examples in Scripture to do.

It always comes back to Authority.

Is our Authority for Christian belief and practice the inspired Word of God?

Or is our authority the doctrines, commandments and traditions of men?

Men cannot save us.

God can.

So who (or Whom) should we listen to and obey?

……………………
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29, KJV)
…………………….

.

If there is any context wherein that verse is not true and applicable, what could it be?

Last edited 21 days ago by scott467
Valerie Curren

Very interesting & quite a thorough historical treatment. It does strike me as a bit of a legalistic viewpoint now & many of the “fathers” appeared to reason from a rather anti-semitic perspective, imo.

I understand that there is a denomination (or perhaps more than one) that is quite concerned with this topic & forbids instruments in worship. If one is so convicted they should certainly seek out such a fellowship so as to feel that they are worshipping in the “proper” manner.

I have personally been very moved “by the Spirit” through times of instrumental worship, especially that which uses clearly scriptural songs &/or hymns as the lyrics also come to my mind. At this time I don’t feel a personal conviction to remove myself from instrumental worship settings. It is not central to the faith but a very peripheral issue in my view.

Again the scriptural admonition is to worship God in spirit and in truth. I think this “controversy” can be akin to the topic of “eating meat sacrificed to idols” or “honoring the day”. If one feels convicted of God (or via their own traditions) that worshipping with instruments is wrong, then by all means they should avoid doing so. I do not see a blanket prohibition per scripture, though I recognize your claims that instrumental worship is not addressed in the NT (neither for nor against). That it is prevalent in the Psalms & that the Psalms remain relevant even today means that for many of us we will likely Not feel convicted in the arena of instruments used in worship.

Blessings & peace in our Lord Jesus Christ!

cthulhu

I have put a hook to this comment in the current day’s thread.

‘Tis a shame to have it buried in the past when it is yet so new.

ROBERT BAKER

The founders of many of the largest denominations (Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc.) ALL condemned instrumental music in worship, and all for the same reason, because it is not found in God’s Word and was not part of Christian worship in the 1st century.

Fortunately neither were denominations.

scott467

“And all were founded on heresies dealt with really early on.”

_____________

But who dealt with the heresies of the RCC, which were against God’s Word in Scripture?

Do we not know that the Lord’s church was referred to in Scripture (and in the 1st century) as the church of God (cf. Acts 20:28), the church of the Firstborn (cf. Hebrews 12:23), and the church of Christ (cf. Romans 16:16)?

To Whom does each reference give glory and honor?

Is it not God the Father and Christ the Son?

Is that not right and proper, considering that the church is His, and He gave Himself for it, and that there is salvation in no other?

Now let us ask ourselves, to whom does The Luthern Church give glory and honor, by its name?

Is it not Luther?

Who (or what) does the Methodist Church give glory and honor to by its name? Is it not the religious system of Methodism?

Who does the Presbyterian Church give glory and honor to by its name? Is it not the presbyters, members of a governing body?

Who does the Baptist Church give glory and honor to, by its name? Is it either John the Baptist, or the act of baptism?

Who (or what) does the Eastern Orthodox Church give glory and honor to, by its name? Is it not the orthodoxy of a geographically distinct segment of the church?

Who (or what) does the Roman Catholic Church give glory and honor to, by its name?

Is it not Rome?

Which of these people or entities died on the cross for our sins?

Where do any of these religious bodies get their names? Are they found in Scripture, or were they given by men?

Can men save us?

Or only Christ?

By what authority was any church established under any of these names, when it is only Christ who saves, and it is only the members of the body, i.e., the church, but importantly, HIS church, who are saved?

……………………….
“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12, KJV)

.

“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” (Colossians 1:18, KJV, boldface mine)

.

“For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. [24] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.” (Ephesians 5:23-24, KJV, boldface mine)
……………………….

scott467

“Fortunately neither were denominations.”

_____________

Exactly true.

There is no authority for denominationalism anywhere in God’s Word. Neither is there found any religion called Roman Catholicism, either by name or by practice.

Jesus did not teach Roman Catholicism, and the apostles did not practice Roman Catholicism. Or any variant of Protestantism.

And since a great many of those who self-identify as Christian also identify as either Roman Catholic or Protestant, that should be something to consider and think deeply on.

ROBERT BAKER

My point was you were using denominational founders as arguments for your position that music was not a part of early Christian worship because it is not mentioned in the NT while at the same time establishing Christian structures which were also not in the NT. They are being, at the very least, inconsistent and not useful to your position.

There are many moral and ethical positions that Christians routinely defend that have no precedent in the NT. The easiest example is abortion. To presume that music should be excluded because it is not mentioned in the NT although it has numerous documented examples in the OT is deciding the debate too narrowly.

To use the argument that the law has been replaced by Christ misses the point. Musical instruments were not a part of the Mosaic Law. I think your argument should be that musical instruments are not a requirement of true worship rather than “There shouldn’t be any musical instruments in worship”.

As always, just my opinion.

Valerie Curren

I think your argument should be that musical instruments are not a requirement of true worship rather than “There shouldn’t be any musical instruments in worship”.”

This is wisdom, imo–Thank you. We had a pastor who preached on absolutes, convictions, & opinions. Absolutes being overtly stated in scripture while the others can be outgrowths of our personal understanding of scripture. I believe this topic falls under convictions & opinions more than absolutes.

scott467

“My point was you were using denominational founders as arguments for your position that music was not a part of early Christian worship because it is not mentioned in the NT while at the same time establishing Christian structures which were also not in the NT. They are being, at the very least, inconsistent and not useful to your position.”

___________

Yes, but I am also very well aware that almost no one will listen to the Scriptural argument, or reasoning from the Scriptures.

If they did, there wouldn’t be a controversy.

But many people are more likely to take notice if the founders of their own denominations were practically viscerally opposed to music in worship.

Enough so that they might actually be curious enough to look into it further.

My highest Authority is God’s Word, period.

For many people, their highest authority is whatever their church says, so the founders of their church — or influential leaders like Thomas Aquinas — may carry more weight with them than God.

As ridiculous as that sounds (because it is ridiculous), but for the most part, people seem ridiculous, so there’s a sort of harmony there 😉

So I used a three-pronged approach, in hopes that I might reach some:

1) Scriptural

2) secular history (encyclopedias and music history sources)

3) founders and influential leaders of the RCC denomination and the Protestant denomination

Last edited 20 days ago by scott467
scott467

“There are many moral and ethical positions that Christians routinely defend that have no precedent in the NT. The easiest example is abortion.:

_____________

Morality doesn’t change between the OT and NT, which we can know (in part) because most of the Ten Commandments (which were ended on the cross with the Old Law) were restated in various places throughout the NT.

We do not live under the Ten Commandments today, for example, most (besides Jews and at least one sect that self-identifies as Christian) do not keep the Sabbath today. Christians worship on the first day of the week, which is Sunday, as we are given example to do in Scripture (cf. Acts 20:7).

And as Paul said, if we seek to keep any portion of the Old Law, we are debtors to do the whole Old Law:

…………………
“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
…………………..

Paul is not saying that circumcision in and of itself is wrong or forbidden, but getting circumcised in order to be in accordance with the Old Law is wrong.

I don’t know what it is that I’m missing, which seems to make this difficult to explain or understand.

I don’t know if it has to do with the ending of the Law of Moses and the establishment of the Law of Christ, or if it has to do with the basics of Scriptural Authority, or whether it is something else, so it is hard to address the issue if I am not sure what the sticking point is.

scott467

“To presume that music should be excluded because it is not mentioned in the NT although it has numerous documented examples in the OT is deciding the debate too narrowly.”

____________

I try very hard not to make presumptions in matters of God.

I understand that anyone who engages in the practice of musical instruments in worship is going to resist the Scriptural argument no less than RF121 resists any accountability on the part of the military for our current situation as an occupied nation.

It’s a given.

Nobody who is doing something that they like to do (e.g., playing instruments in worship) wants to consider that it may not be acceptable to God, and they certainly don’t want to stop doing it.

I know that. It is to be expected.

And so I understand that people are going to look for any and every exception, loophole, etc., or try to use OT law to justify NT practice, basically anything that can be done to rationalize or justify keeping the practice.

That’s how it always is, with everything.

If we start from a position of doing a thing that we like or are accustomed to, then we’re likely to try everything possible to make God’s Word fit that practice.

Conversely, if we approach the subject with an open mind and an open heart, not having ‘a dog in the fight’, but only seeking what is approved by God, it will become much easier to see.

This is why it is so critical to avoid error in the first place, because correcting it, once it is established and becomes ‘tradition’, is nearly impossible.

In many cases, the best you can do is leave that group, and find another congregation that is already doing things according to Scripture.

Which of the following is the real presumption?

A) without Scriptural Authority, i.e., approved example, necessary (not possible but necessary) inference, or command, I will do a certain thing because I want to, or because I think it’s okay

B) without Scriptural Authority, i.e., approved example, necessary (not possible but necessary) inference or command, I will not do a certain thing

Which is presuming authority to oneself, doing something for which there is no express authority in God’s Word to do, and which is acting conservatively, not going beyond the bounds of what is commanded, necessarily inferred or given by approved example?

scott467

“To use the argument that the law has been replaced by Christ misses the point. Musical instruments were not a part of the Mosaic Law.”

_____________

As the centurion was, I am also a man under Authority:

…………………….
“For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.” (Matthew 8:9, KJV)
…………………….

My Authority is God.

Because God does not speak to me directly, I have only His Word as my Authority in matters having to do with God.

The commands and examples and necessary inferences for Christian belief and practice and conduct are contained within the New Testament.

There are many things for which Authority exists in the OT, but not in the NT.

There are likewise many things for which Authority exists in the NT, but not in the OT.

There are also many things for which Authority exists in both Testaments (e.g., we are not to murder, steal, etc.).

In matters of belief and doctrine and practice, I endeavor to observe and follow that which is found in the New Testament of Jesus Christ.

………………….
Hebrews 9:15: “And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.” (KJV)

Hebrews 9:16: “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.”

Hebrews 9:17: “For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”

Hebrews 9:18: ” Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.”
………………….

That some of the things in the NT are also found in the OT is not disputed.

However, unless we live under the Old Testament and the New, the things which are commanded (or given by example, or necessary inference) in the OT, but which are not found in the NT, are not applicable to Christian practice and conduct.

So the question remains, where is the Scriptural Authority (book, chapter and verse), either by command, approved example or necessary inference, for the use of musical instruments, in New Testament Christian worship?

If it is not found, if it cannot be found, then by what Authority should I do or practice this thing?

What are the only possibilities?

1) because I want to (self will)

2) because some other man told me to (following the self will of others)

3) because it is in the Old Testament, but I pick and choose which things in the Old Testament I want to follow, and disregard those which things I do no want to follow, i.e., self will

Are there any other possibilities?

Last edited 20 days ago by scott467
scott467

edit / correction: “…and disregard those things which I do not want to follow, i.e., self will

Aubergine

“There shouldn’t be any musical instruments in worship. And there weren’t, until one of the Popes (Vitalian?) introduced the organ, in the 600s A.D., if I remember correctly.”

Psalm 33, Verse 2

Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.

That’s just one example. There are many others of using instruments in worship.

bakocarl

Psalm 81:2 Raise a song; sound the tambourine, the sweet lyre with the harp.
Psalm 98:5 Sing praises to the Lord with the lyre, with the lyre and the sound of melody!
Psalm 150:4 Praise him with tambourine and dance; raise him with strings and pipe!
Habakkuk 3:19 God, the Lord, is my strength; he makes my feet like the deer’s; he makes me tread on my high places.
To the choirmaster: with stringed instruments.
1 Chronicles 15:16  David also commanded the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their brothers as the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments, on harps and lyres and cymbals, to raise sounds of joy.
1 Chronicles 23:5 4,000 gatekeepers, and 4,000 shall offer praises to the Lord with the instruments that I have made for praise.”

Aubergine

Yes!

The Old Testament is in the Bible for a reason. It should not be disregarded, in my opinion.

bakocarl

I believe this is pertinent also and should be applied to worship in all its forms and times –

Watch for Those Who Want to Keep the Law
Col2:16 Do not let anyone tell you what you should or should not eat or drink. They have no right to say if it is right or wrong to eat certain foods or if you are to go to religious suppers. They have no right to say what you are to do at the time of the new moon or on the Day of Rest. 17 These things are a picture of what is coming. The important thing is Christ Himself.

Aubergine

Thanks, Carl.

scott467

“I believe this is pertinent also and should be applied to worship in all its forms and times –
Watch for Those Who Want to Keep the Law”

_____________

A very good reminder.

Who in this discussion keeps referring to the Old Law for their authority to use musical instruments in worship?

.

Col2:16 Do not let anyone tell you what you should or should not eat or drink. They have no right to say if it is right or wrong to eat certain foods or if you are to go to religious suppers. They have no right to say what you are to do at the time of the new moon or on the Day of Rest. 17 These things are a picture of what is coming. The important thing is Christ Himself.”

____________

Very well said!

Have I said any thing of my own Authority in these matters, or have I only and repeatedly pointed to the Word of God, in every thing?

Does God have a right to say what is right or wrong? Let us hear Him.

Does God have a right to say what we should eat or drink? Let us hear Him.

Does God have a right to say what we are to do at the time of the new moon or on the day of rest? Let us hear Him.

If the answer is “yes”, then where can we find His instruction in these matters and others, except in His Word?

Hopefully we can all agree that since the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, and the establishment of Christ’s church in Acts chapter 2, we are not under the Old Testament Law.

I do not say any thing in matters of God, not one, of my own authority or by the authority of any man.

I am pointing only to the Authority of God’s Word, and may it ever be so.

scott467

“The Old Testament is in the Bible for a reason. It should not be disregarded, in my opinion.”

____________

Who said anyone should disregard the Old Testament?

I would certainly never make any such claim.

Without the Old Testament, we would have no context in which to understand the New Testament.

But is it not a very different thing to suggest that those who claim to be Christians according to the New Testament, should worship according to the ways of the Jews under the Law of Moses?

Aubergine

But God is omniscient. He knows and knew everything, all at once, past, present, and future.

There is no “context” for God. He knew and knows what would happen, and what had happened all along.

“Timelines” and history have no meaning for God. Timelines only have meaning for humans. The Old Testament comes before the New Testament only in the human experience.

scott467

Of course, but did God cause the Scriptures to be written for Himself, that only He could understand them?

Or were they written for us, so that we could understand them?

Does God want people to be saved?

Or did He make it complicated and difficult?

Is God playing a shell game with us, or does He want us to know and understand (and do) His will?

Aubergine

Well, you tell me?

That’s what I’m talking about. Is the Bible a test? Do we fail if we don’t know what to ignore and what to actually do?

If it was written for us, and the parts in the Old Testament about using lutes and tamborines to praise God are bad, why include it? To confuse people?

scott467

“That’s what I’m talking about. Is the Bible a test? Do we fail if we don’t know what to ignore and what to actually do?”

___________

I suppose it could be thought of that way, as a test. We will have to apply ourselves, with some effort, if we are to understand, which is to be expected.

I have read that the KJV is translated at an 8th grade level of understanding, so there is no reason why we shouldn’t be able to understand it.

It certainly helps to understand what might be called ‘rules’ to understanding it.

The ‘rules’ are part of the Scriptures, but not often explicitly stated, because it’s not written as a ‘rule book’.

One example of a ‘rule’ which can be necessarily inferred is that God, being perfect (cf. Deuteronomy 32:4, 2 Samuel 22:31, Psalm 18:30), and not being double-minded (James 1:8), and knowing the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10) does not (cannot) contradict Himself.

This might be called the ‘rule of non-contradiction‘.

So any time we come across something in Scripture that appears to contradict another part of Scripture, it must not actually be, so it needs to be examined further in order to reach an understanding that reconciles with the rest of God’s Word on the same subject.

There are also ‘rules’ about Authority. For example, there is general Authority:

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” (Mark 16:15, KJV)

Jesus did not specify how they should go, so the choice was theirs, whatever means was expedient (walking, by mule, by horse, by boat, etc., or in the modern era by plane, by train, by automobile, etc.) was permissible.

Then there is specific Authority:

“Make thee an ark of gopherwood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.” (Genesis 6:14)

God said specifically to make the ark out of gopherwood, which necessarily excludes any other type of wood. Noah had no Authority to use maple, oak, pine, spruce, etc.

So you see how the Scriptures themselves establish a framework for understanding the Scriptures.

Let’s keep going.

There are (at least) 3 ways in Scripture that God communicates His Authority:

1) necessary inference (not possible inference, but necessary inference)

2) approved example, sometimes called ‘apostolic example’, i.e., a passage that shows the proper way to do or handle something, by someone in a position to know God’s will, like an Apostle.

3) direct command, which is self explanatory, e.g., thou shalt not, thou shalt, etc.

These are all rational approaches to understanding Scripture, and we have many examples of Apostles (e.g. Paul, Acts 17:2) and disciples (e.g. Apollos, Acts 18:28) and of course Jesus (e.g., Matthew 22:31-33) reasoning from the Scriptures.

So you see there is an entire framework of approved examples and commands and necessary inferences, and non-contradiction, and specific vs. general authority, which guide our understanding of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

Let’s keep going, there’s only one more that occurs to me at the moment.

This next one is a biggie, because it applies to essentially everything that is not explicitly approved or condemned in Scripture, and it is about the SILENCE of the Scriptures.

If God had to specifically state every single thing that we are not to do, the Bible would reach all the way to the Moon and back.

So clearly, if Scripture does not say specifically to NOT do something, that does not in any way imply that we have permission to do it.

Scripture says we are not to murder, but I don’t recall anywhere in Scripture where God commands us to not cut off someone’s big toe.

If the Scriptures are SILENT about cutting off people’s toes, does that mean we have permission to go around cutting people’s toes off?

Yes it’s a ridiculous example, but ridiculous examples are useful to make a point.

[and yes, under OT law, if someone cut your toe off, then you could cut their toe off, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a toe for a toe 😉 ]

Why is it important to respect the SILENCE of the Scriptures, and not interpret things about which the Scriptures are SILENT as granting permission?

Because human nature will take everything to the extreme. Give an inch and they take a mile.

Absent a Bible that goes to the Moon and back filled with “thou shalt not” for every conceivable thing under the sun, we have to understand just because God didn’t tell us not to do some thing, that doesn’t mean He approves of us doing it.

If you told your kids not to play in the street, but you didn’t tell them not to play in the street on a Thursday, does that mean you’re going to be okay with it, if you catch your kids playing in the street on Thursday?

Is that gonna fly with you, if they say “But Mom, you didn’t specifically tell us not to play in the street on a Thursday”?

If not, then by what reason of logic (or sanity) should we think doing similar things would fly with God?

Silence does not equal permission.

.
.

“If it was written for us, and the parts in the Old Testament about using lutes and tamborines to praise God are bad, why include it? To confuse people?”

____________

Not at all, and I don’t know for sure that it was bad in the OT. Amos 6:5 seems to suggest it was wrong (IIRC), but I haven’t studied it.

Suppose it was right and good and approved by God in OT Jewish worship, for sake of argument.

Are there not all kinds of things the Jews did under the Old Law or in the Old Testament that are different for Christians in the New Testament?

If it is understood that the Old Law was fulfilled and ended with Jesus’ death on the cross, and that a New Law and testament was established, then clearly we ought not seek to go back to the Old Law.

Like the Jews in the wilderness with Moses, desiring to return to Egypt, to bondage, rather than freedom and the promised land.

Like Paul explaining by allegory the difference between Abraham’s son by the bondwoman (Hagar), and Abraham’s son by the free woman (Sarah):

…………………………
“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? [22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. [23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

[24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. [25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. [27] For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

[28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. [29] But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

[30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. [31] So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” (Galatians 4:21-31, KJV)
…………………………

This in no way discounts the importance of reading and learning and knowing the OT, for without it, we would be like people with amnesia, not understanding our history, or where we came from, or how we got to where we are now.

We would not know all of the foreshadowing, and prophecy which was subsequently fulfilled, and all manner of important things.

As Paul says, by inspiration of God:

“For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” (Romans 15:4, KJV)

But clearly there is a dividing line between the Old Covenant with the Jews, and the New Covenant of Christ.

And we should be careful not to drag things from the old into the new which do not belong.

How can we know, and be sure?

By applying the framework of basic rules of understanding outlined above. Not rules imposed by man from without, but rules which are taught from the Scriptures themselves, and by reasoning from the Scriptures as we have plenty of examples to do.

That is my understanding and attempt to explain. I hope that I did not do it poorly.

Now here is a link to an explanation which will be miles better than mine:

https://www.bible.ca/d-authority-acts-15-silence.htm

Last edited 20 days ago by scott467
Aubergine

Everything about this feels like the rationalization of men to me.

ROBERT BAKER

I was wondering if you would introduce the OT. I think that one of the functions of the Levites was to sing. So I guess you could say that they were the precursor to the Christian choir.

scott467

Are these not all examples, every one, from the Old Testament?

Is the Old Testament the guide for Christian worship, or is the Lord’s instruction for Christian worship found in the New Testament?

scott467

“Psalm 33, Verse 2
Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.”

_______________

Is that not in the Old Testament, as is the sacrificing of animals in worship to God, and all sorts of other things which were under the Old Law, but not in Christian worship?

Are we yet Jews under the Law of Moses?

Was Christ’s sacrifice in vain?

.

“That’s just one example. There are many others of using instruments in worship.”

_______________

If there is a single example in the New Testament for musical instruments in Christian worship, I have not found it.

Can anyone find it?

If anyone can find it, I will gladly look at it.

Aubergine

Well, here’s the thing, Scott. It’s the reason why people like me leave church.

You hand me a Bible and tell me it’s the word of God. Then in the next breath you tell me to ignore 2/3 of it.

Why is the Old Testament in the Bible, if it’s irrelevant and I’m supposed to ignore it?

The illogical nature of this just baffles me.

SteveInCO · Thermonuclear MAGA

How many printed bibles out there are just New Testament + Psalms?

If I were in your shoes, theologically, that would disturb me.

Aubergine

Lol. None of this disturbs me. I believe what I believe, period.

This is just an interesting theological discussion.

Gingersmom2009

No musical instruments in worship?

Oh my – I spent 50 years, always training, using my God-bestowed ability at a very high level as an organist. Some of the repertoire I mastered, both as a soloist and accompanist, literally stuns me now – as I’m retired.

I will be forever grateful for that opportunity. Being so cavalier with your proclamation lessens your stellar commentary.

Last edited 21 days ago by Gingersmom2009
scott467

“No musical instruments in worship?
Oh my – I spent 50 years, always training, using my God-bestowed ability at a very high level as an organist. Some of the repertoire I mastered, both as a soloist an accompanist, stuns me now – as I’m retired.
I will be forever grateful for that opportunity.”

______________

This is the problem with speaking the truth about anything people like to do, they often have an emotional response, or personalize it, and make the messenger the bad guy.

As practice and beliefs go, this is not complicated in the slightest, is it?

I mean, either we have Authority for what we do in matters of God, or we don’t.

If a doctrine or practice is in error, whether we’ve been doing it for 99 seconds or 99 years, it’s still error, yes?

So time is not relevant, only whether the thing in question is in accordance with God’s will or not, and to the extent that God’s will can be known about any thing, how can it be known except what He has chosen to reveal, in His Word?

Having a God-given ability is wonderful.

Developing a God-given ability is wonderful.

Musical instruments are wonderful.

Music is wonderful.

Music in worship… where is the Authority?

Is it of men, or of God?

If it is of God, then absolutely 100% we will be able to find it in His Word.

And if it is not found in God’s Word, then by definition, it must of a necessity be of men.

It really is that simple.

I have nothing to do with it. I can’t change it. My opinion about it is irrelevant. It’s not about me. If it was up to me, I’d probably be fine with musical instruments, but it’s not up to me.

Are we the highest authority in matters of God?

Or is God the highest Authority in matters of God?

I know every person reading here knows the obvious answer to that question.

Every single one.

And the answer has nothing whatsoever to do with me, or what I think about it.

.
.

“Being so cavalier with your proclamation lessens your stellar commentary.”

______________

Should I speak the truth, or should I please men (and women)?

………………..
“For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.” (Galatians 1:10, KJV)
………………..

Last edited 21 days ago by scott467
Gingersmom2009

Obviously my video post was an obvious joke. Not a jumping off point for serious discussion.

I’m no Scripture expert like many here – but music in praise to God is referenced frequently. And not just unaccompanied singing. We all know the passages.

Where are the rules laid out, laid out exactly, that specify how we’re to worship? WHERE is it stated that music in worship is an effrontery to God? That God takes it as an effrontery. You’re very sure of yourself, so this info must be on the tip of your keyboard. I don’t need a novel, just a simple answer.

Your final quote about pleasing men has nothing to do with music in church. You always beat people over the head with your unshakeable truth. Operative word “your”.

I always agree with your posts that conclude with “when will we rise up and stop it?”. But this is just junk religion.

And I’m off the carousel, because there’s nothing you’ll say that will change my mind one iota.

I think what I think, and

Gingersmom2009

First sentence should read: My FB video was an obvious joke.

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

At least the link posts. Facebook embeds are not allowed to run here, because that would basically be CIA code running on the site. Can’t have that.

Gingersmom2009

Sorry I didn’t know. Just delete 👍🏻

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

The link’s not a problem! People can choose whether to click or not.

Gingersmom2009

They labeled it Charlie Brown church. The music.

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

Stew Peters sometimes makes things VERY clear.

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

Here”s the full image…..

Click for a surprise!
comment image

cthulhu

Works for me.

cthulhu

There is still a possibility that there will be a large, gruesome FF impacting the Davos crowd, to which the world might respond:

“Gee, that’s too damned bad.”

And when governments and Davosites say, “this deserves immediate emergency response where resources are mobilized by the elite and freedoms are temporarily curtailed for the masses”, the world might respond:

“What does?”

TheseTruths

Fertilizer!

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

Many here will love this!

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

We’re getting a preview of what Nancy Pelosi tried to hide.

TheseTruths

That’s a good article. I can’t wait for it to all come out. I thought about people’s identities being revealed, but the Feds already have that information.

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

OK – sometime today or in the evening, I’m going to install a new version of JetPack, and we will see if that kills YouTube videos. SO – please feel free to add YouTube videos all day. They seem to be working very nicely now.

pgroup2

Why? Is JetPack broken?

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

JetPack is constantly updating, just like all plugins. Some of these are security updates, but most are simply bug fixes and feature additions / corrections.

The point is, JetPack has “misbehaved” in the past. I don’t trust it not to break things!!!

Last edited 21 days ago by Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy
Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

Private jets, petrol vehicles, and meat dinners aren’t the only scandals in Davos!

gil00

So i have to say, these are the “public” demands they are afraid to really acknowledge.
We of course do not know about the depraved ones, of which, i am certain, people who are attending that may coordinate with each other are demanding.

cthulhu

kea had brought this over to Marica’s….it’s beautiful.

Nobody does terrazzo any more because nobody understands it.

cthulhu

Best in show — when breeds of all shapes and sizes are evaluated against various ideals of perfection….

TheseTruths

That long-haired Maltese at 4:00! So beautiful, and so much upkeep!

barkerjim

Thread by @ShellenbergerMD on Thread Reader App – Thread Reader App

Spokespersons for @wef say “The Great Reset,” eating insects instead of meat, and “You’ll own nothing and be happy” are conspiracy theories, but they’re not. In fact, all of them originated @Davos and from WEF’s own website. But now, WEF is deleting them.

para59r

Still waiting to see bugs on the plates of the elite.

TheseTruths

This WEF meeting is a perfect time for them to lead by example. They could easily showcase what they’re eating.

Wolf Moon | Threat to Demonocracy

The World Economic Forum is not just completely out of touch with humanity – it’s out of touch with reality – including basic truth.

rayzorback

Many are out of touch with “Reality”.
All will become Known in due time.
“Belief” does not necessarily equal “Truth”.

Last edited 21 days ago by rayzorback
kalbokalbs

^^^ Could be said of Congress, Pravda News, hollyweird…

duchess01

Verse of the Day for Tuesday, January 17, 2023

“Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.” 

Psalms 55:22 (KJV)

comment image

Thank You, Jesus, for blessings received and prayers answered!!!

duchess01

BE MY VOICE

comment image

BABY LIVES MATTER

comment image

JESUS LOVES THE LITTLE CHILDREN

comment image

comment image

duchess01

PRAYING ON THE ARMOR OF GOD

Father God, I now follow your command to put on the full armor of God, because my battle is not against flesh and blood but against rulers, authorities, the powers of this dark world and against spiritual forces of evil in the unseen world.

I first pray on the Belt of Truth that it may be buckled around my waist, may I be centered and encircled by your truth dear Lord. Hem me inside all that is true and right, and may I be protected and held up by the truth of your living word, in my Lord Jesus name.

I pray on the Breastplate of righteousness, please protect my vital organs and my inner man, cover my integrity, my spirit, and my soul. Guard my heart for it is the wellspring of life, please strengthen and guard the most vulnerable places in my life with that which is right, good, and noble that I might not receive a fatal blow from the enemy, in my Lord Jesus name.

I pray on the Gospel Shoes of Peace. I choose to stand in the shoes of your good news, and on the firm foundation of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the solid eternal rock. All other ground is sinking sand, I pray that I will not slip or fall, but that my feet would be firmly fitted on your lordship, my Lord Jesus. I choose to stand on you, so that the peace of God, which transcends all understanding will guard my heart and mind in Christ Jesus, the eternal Rock of Ages. I receive your holy peace now my Lord, from the sole of my feet to the crown of my head, in my Lord Jesus name.

I pray the Shield of Faith into my hand now. As I take up the shield of faith, I ask that you might extinguish every dart and arrow, that is launched from the enemy to take me down spiritually, physically, mentally, emotionally, and every attempt of the enemy to destroy my joy. I ask that my faith in you would make it flame out. Extinguish every flaming arrow that would come against me, my life, my family, my home, or my ministry. May my faith always be out in front of me like a shield. Give me the courage to “faith my fears” by choosing to walk by faith and not by sight, in my Lord Jesus name.

I pray on the Helmet of Salvation, that you might protect my mind from the thoughts that can lead me astray. I choose to take every thought captive, and arrest all intentioned ideas and motives that would harm others, or distract me from your holy will for me. I submit every captured thought to the Lordship of my Lord Jesus Christ, and ask that you would imprison those thoughts that are not of you my Lord. Transform my mind and renew my thinking that I may think God thoughts, and have a sober mind that is focused on your glory. Please protect me from being double minded that I may allow my mind, I reject to live an earthly life, because I choose to live a holy one, governed by you My Lord Jesus, the prince of peace, please have my mind to be saturated with the holy mind of Christ, in my Lord Jesus name.

Finally, I take up the Sword of the Spirit which is the holy word of God, I pray this powerful offensive weapon into my hand, and ask that your holy word would be fitting for every encounter I face. As the enemy gets close to me, please give me the insight, wisdom, and skill to wield the word of God to drive away the enemy, in my Lord Jesus name.

May the enemy and his team flee from me, upon hearing the word of God spoken by the power and direction of the Holy Spirit. Give me the sword of the spirit to cut through the wiles of the devil, so that I may discern the schemes of the enemy when he is near.

With all kinds of prayers, supplication, and intercession I pray to you my Lord God as the one who fights my battles. Now that I’m in your holy powerful armor, I walk away covered and ready to face my day as you go before me, and please protect me in the midst of the spiritual warfare in this unseen world, in my Lord Jesus name.

Thank you my Lord, for the spiritual weapons of armor and prayer that you have given me. It is written no weapon formed against me shall prosper, and you will refute every tongue that accuses me. 

Thank you Father God, my Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit, that I am more than a conqueror in my Lord Jesus. I pray all of this in the mighty name of my Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ.

AMEN.

comment image