DEAR MAGA: Open Thread 20211230

Superb post.

“Just like the argument that our only option left is use of force as a way to restore and preserve our Republic is a lie.”

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It’s a lie that anybody said that, unless you can quote it. Because if you can’t, then it’s just another Straw Man.

On the other hand, I have asked many times, whether there is a single example, in all of human history, where the things you have proposed have ever succeeded in overthrowing tyranny.

As always, you didn’t answer that question, and neither has anyone else.

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“And a very dangerous one at that.”

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A straw man isn’t dangerous at all, as long as you recognize it for what it is.

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“Sundance has already laid out the necessary, Constitutional pathway….and it need not involve violence.”

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Who called for violence?

My point, repeatedly, is that tyrants do not leave without being forced to do so. That could be as simple as a group of armed deputies confronting a criminal. If the criminal commits violence, or does anything besides surrender, the criminal may experience some violence in return.

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“We take over the school boards, the city councils, and mayorships. The sheriffs and DA offices.”

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Sounds great.

Hopefully the enemy gives us as much time as we need, and stops rigging the elections, and stops funding DS candidates, and all the stars align perfectly, and the check is in the mail.

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“Then we take the state houses and governorships. Here we already have a tremendous advantage….and growing.”

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Have you identified this deep bench of patriots, and have they committed to seeing your vision through?

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“Imagine a US where the GOP controlled all 50 states….with the will of the people….vs a democrat controlled fed govt. WHO DO YOU THINK WOULD REALLY BE IN CONTROL OF THE NATION?”

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We’re completely into the Bluto speech at the end of Animal House at this point. Pure emotionalism.

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“The argument that “force is necessary” also completely discounts the Great Awakening that is currently underway.”

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Any way to substantiate that claim? Any credible, reliable evidence?

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“Guess what? We are witnessing levels of local conservative activism that hasn’t been seen in decades.”

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I haven’t witnessed it. Any way to substantiate your claim? Any credible, reliable evidence, with context?

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“A formerly confused, dissuaded, and demoralized Tea Party has been reborn under President Trump.”

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Do you have credible evidence to support all of these naked assertions, or is this purely an inspirational speech?

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“Scott ignores the tens thousands of Scott Presslers out there,”

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That hardly seems fair, I’m not ignoring anyone, I just haven’t seen them, I don’t have any way to verify your claim.

Obviously you do, or I’m sure you would never make such a claim, or any of the other many claims.

This latest claim is a little more specific than some of the previous ones, so why not start here?

How many tens of thousands? Certainly the number can be rounded to the nearest ten thousand.

Which states have how many, roughly?

Finally, if these are real people, and not simply wish projection, what are their names?

If you’ve counted them, you must know their names, and it’s extremely unlikely that you memorized them, so you must have a list, or a link to a list of all the Scott Presslers out there.

So where is the list?

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“…registering 100 more voters every week than their democrat counterparts.
Moreover…”

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Suppose every person in the United States votes for the candidate you want elected.

How does that overcome rigged voting machines?

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“Never before has the clarity between our side and the the enemy been so great.”

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Is that a personal opinion, a characterization, and assumption, etc., or do you have a credible source for that claim?

Or is this still part of the emotional / inspirational speech?

I am very susceptible to emotional speeches, but I am not sure the domestic traitors and enemy forces will retreat based on emotion.

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“A great winnowing is taking place. The wheat is being separated from the chaff. People are taking….and switching….sides.”

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Assertion, assertion, assertion… and assertion.

Emotional appeal.

Logical fallacy.

Unsubstantiated claims.

Not popular, not emotionally satisfying, but true.

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“But this takes time.”

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Hopefully we have time.

If this goes on much longer, President Trump could be forced to withdraw from the presidency, the military could forget or abandon their duty to protect and defend the country, and after all the crying is over, all we’ll be left with is emotional appeals and speeches.

Hopefully all of your plans can be realized before that happens…

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“And time is on OUR side.”

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I was going to say “assertion without substantiation” again, but let me change it up.

What makes you think time is on our side?

Can that assertion be backed up with anything other than… another assertion?

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“The enemy….like Joe Biden…..is becoming more and more exposed to the naked eye on a daily basis.”

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Agreed, to those who actually pay attention.

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“People ARE waking up.”

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Do you have any quantifiable, verifiable evidence to support that assertion, besides capitalizing the word “ARE”?

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“That process takes time.”

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Indeed.

How much time do we have, and how do you know?

What are the chances that all of the things you are talking about will come to pass, and do so, before we are out of time?

And assuming it all happens with time to spare, how does that make any criminal vacate his position of power or authority?

What makes the enemy, having exposed himself and removing any pretense of what he is or what he is doing, suddenly follow the law and the will of the people, absent being forced to do so, by someone, somehow?

If you catch a real criminal red-handed, in the act, is he going to surrender, or just walk away, because you asked him nicely, and played by all the rules, and accomplished all these amazing things?

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“Time the enemy cannot afford to give, for theynwill inevitably be the minority. Tyrants always are.”

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Is that a non-sequitur, or a naked assertion, or both?

The enemy has always been the minority, and yet that hasn’t stopped them from taking control of the entire government. And even when we put Trump in the WH, they still managed to pull off a successful coup and rig elections, while DJT was in office.

If they can do that while DJT was in office, how much easier will it be for them (and harder for us) if the enemy controls the government AND the presidency?

Asking for a friend.

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“So the enemy NEEDS confrontation.”

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As a practical matter, if a hostile aggressor presents himself, confrontation is the inevitable result, unless the person or people confronted by the hostile aggressor surrender.

Unless there is some third way.

Is there a third way?

I mean, the nature of conflict is confrontation.

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“Right now NOTHING would better suit….or help obfuscate and conceal….the Biden administration and political left than a pretext for war….actual use of force. Especially here within the US.”

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The appeal to do nothing, to sit tight and eat some cheetoes, is always powerful, because it requires nothing more of the audience than to get lost in an emotional speech.

It may be true that the enemy would appreciate a pretext for clamping down harder on society than they already have. That is always going to be the case, is it not?

Is there any time when the enemy would not use resistance as a pretext to further oppress the People?

Historically speaking, is that not always the case?

So it’s not just “Right now”, but this will “always” be true.

And since it will always be true, there is not, and will never, be a ‘good’ time to oppose tyranny, when the tyrants won’t use it as a pretext for more oppression.

So your argument is not a temporal one, your point won’t change with time, which means ‘right now’ is not the determining factor. The tyrants will always use resistance as a pretext for more oppression.

So the question becomes either surrender, or when resistance takes place, not ‘if’, because those are the two options, based on history.

If we include new things under the sun, things which have never happened before in the history of the world, then all the things you propose would fall under that category, which we might call ‘Door Number 3’, in honor of The Monty Hall Show.

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“We have the right to self defense.”

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Indeed we do.

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“We also had have the obligation of restraint and exhausting all Constitutional methods to preserve our Republic.”

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“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.” — Declaration of Independence

“A strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation.

To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means.” — Thomas Jefferson

Donald J. Trump: “Our constitution is great, but it doesn’t necessarily give us the right to commit suicide, okay?”

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“The idea that the use of force is necessary discounts the will of an awakened public,”

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Which you can neither quantify or prove…

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“…and it does not believe we can restore things like fair and honest elections without it.”

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Belief is irrelevant.

Don’t take my word for it, try it.

Close your eyes, and wish real hard that everything was different, and really believe it. With feeling. Now open your eyes. Is anything different?

That’s reality.

And the longer we spend on fantasy, the harder reality is going to be, for all of us.

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“This lie says the die is cast,”

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The lie is yours, it’s your Straw Man, your favorite rhetorical device, as pointed out at the beginning.

If you actually quoted those with whom you disagree, it would be almost impossible to engage in Straw Man arguments, because the Straw Man can only be erected in the absence of what the other person actually said.

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“…even as it discounts and minimizes everything that says otherwise….”

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What “otherwise”?

Where’s the beef?

What evidence have you provided to substantiate a single one of your claims in this emotionally satisfying speech, with which you have tickled the ears?

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“…that the use of force is inevitable. Well, it may come to that.”

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So after this entire speech, you provide yourself an out, an escape hatch, just in case all of the claims turn out to be pie-in-the-sky BS… 😂

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“But it is 100% wrong to say it is the only course of action left”

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Which no one but you has…

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“…by arguing any other path has already or will fail.”

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Only history has argued that any other path will fail.

That is, unless you have finally located a single, solitary, lonesome, extraordinary example, in all of human history, where any of the things you have asserted (without substantiation) have successfully overthrown tyranny.

I keep asking for a single example, because if there is a single example where tyrants have been removed without the use of force, then we should take that example, and duplicate it as closely as possible, to obtain the same result.

Problem solved.

All we have to do is find it.

There are a lot of smart people on this forum, and at least a few who would like to prove me wrong and prove you right, and yet no one has been able to provide a single example, in all of human history, where force was not ultimately required to remove tyranny.

If no such example exists, then by definition, what you are proposing is some new thing under the sun.

Which means your argument is with Solomon.

And Ecclesiastes was inspired by God, so your argument is with God — and human nature, all the way back to Adam.

Or to say it another way, your argument is with reality.

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“And no one can know that.”

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History knows.

So why not inquire of history?

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“We certainly won’t know without trying, and trying takes time.”

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How much time do you think we have?

I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not, but all three branches of the federal government (and all agencies therein) are under enemy control, which means the military is under enemy control, unless you have credible evidence to the contrary.

Effectively, that means America is now, currently, a de facto occupied territory, under the control of a transnational criminal consortium.

As you have pointed out, they have been exposed, to anyone willing to look.

So that ‘die is cast’, they can’t walk that back, they are committed. They are exposed.

There is much good about that.

But having been exposed also removes plausible deniability, which removes the possibility of escape, which in turn removes any hesitation or reluctance to do whatever is necessary to retain power and control.

This means that even if we retake every school board in the nation, and then turn in unison toward the enemy, with hands on hips and the most scolding expression our faces can muster, the enemy is not going to say ‘okay, you win, we surrender’.

Because having been exposed, they know what that means, for future prospects of keeping their heads attached to their shoulders, for one thing.

So even if all of your civic dreams come true, there will come a point where the rubber meets the road.

When that moment arrives, why will the transnational criminal organization — the true leaders of which will certainly be physically located far beyond our shores — give up without a fight?

Why?

These people are mostly psychopaths.

Do psychopaths strike you as the sort of people who will surrender, essentially commit suicide, without taking as many innocent people with them as possible?

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“In point of fact,”

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Aha, the first one!

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“America is a nation of firsts. It well could be that we may yet win this asymmetrical war without the citizenry having to take up arms.”

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Well, when you put it that way… with such strong conviction…

Suddenly doubts are creeping in.

Could I have been wrong all along?

I’d like to phone a friend.

I’d like to call Emily Littela… she’ll know what to say… 😁

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“Lord knows President Trump is hard at work behind the scenes working to effect this exact outcome,”

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Indeed, the Lord does know.

The rest of us, however, are not the Lord, and therefore, aren’t privy to that information.

The clue was right there in your expression ‘behind the scenes‘.

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“…and he is far, FAR from being alone in that effort.”

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It’s fascinating… the more times you say far, and the bigger you CAPITALIZE it, the more real it seems, even without any substantiation, at all.

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“In ten thousand towns and cities, the war is being fought… non-kinetically.”

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Finally we have a hard number, not some vague ‘tens of thousands’, but ten thousand on the barrel head.

Certainly you have a list you will provide, to substantiate this claim.

But while we wait, I’m still curious… even if all ten thousand towns and cities pull off a clean sweep and accomplish every objective of your plan, how does that make the tyrannical regime lay down their arms and surrender without a fight?

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“Eyes are being opened, minds are being enlightened and opinions ARE changing.”

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George Soros always said that was his deepest, darkest fear, that he would have to give up and lose everything, if opinions changed.

Putin fears the same thing. They’re both very sensitive, and prone to premature capitulation at even the hint of popular disapproval.

They’re all sentimental pushovers, really.

That’s how they got into power in the first place…

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“The youth are turning on Biden and the left.”

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How many youth do you know who are actually turning on Biden and the Left, who weren’t already opposed to them?

When you provide the list of ten thousand towns and cities fighting the war, and the other documentation to support your myriad assertions, would you please also include credible data on these yutes?

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“The enemy would love nothing better than the pretext for the use of force at this juncture.”

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Yes, I know, we’ve covered that already.

At which juncture would the enemy not love the pretext for the use of force?

That would likely be the best time.

It’s important to know the answer, otherwise we might inadvertently wait forever, or until it’s too late to do anything, whichever would be worse.

And that would be bad.

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“It is the HIGHEST risk to the success of the MAGA movement at present.”

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Is that a declaration of fact by U.S. General FG&C, or the strongly held opinion of private citizen FG&C?

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“Time is NOT on the enemy’s side.”

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How exactly are you quantifying that claim?

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“But it IS on our side,”

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That’s the same thing Mick and the boys said.

But then they moved to France and became tax exiles (on main street).

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“The longer we can go without the use of force,”

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I wouldn’t worry about that, it looks like we’ll have no problem going way past the point where even you would be begging for the use of force.

The Founding Fathers knew whereof they spake: “and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.” — Declaration of Independence

I think it’s safe to say we can all take great comfort in that knowledge, and the long, dark, cold struggle for endurance to come. 👍😁

“…the greater our chances of preserving”

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Whoops, too late…

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“…and restoring our Constitution Republic.”

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Amen!