Open Thread 20241225 – Pagan inclusion, or Creation calculation – how did Christmas come to be?

Recently, I accidentally discovered that a long-held belief of mine was very likely untrue! As I sure you all can identify with, this was somewhat disconcerting. Who likes to be wrong? But I am a researcher, and accepting what one finds when researching is imperative. I thought I would share what I found out with you all, since it is Christmas, and that is crux of the matter.

I thought for many years that Jesus was not really born on Christmas Day. That day was chosen, I believed, because pagan cultures already celebrated on that day, and Christianity wanted to include (subsume, some would say) those religions. This is called the “History of Religions” theory.

There was Saturnalia, for example, celebrated originally on December 17, and later from the 17th through the 23rd; and the December 25 holiday Sol Invictus (the Unconquered or Invincible Sun). The earliest reference I had seen to the celebration of Jesus birth on December 25 was in 354 AD. It is from Depositio Martirum of the Chronography of 354, and reads:

‘December 25, Christ is born in Bethlehem of Judea.’

However, I was to find that this is NOT the earliest that such a thing was suggested, by a long shot!

I stumbled across this reference to Hippolytus, who in his day attempted to date every Passover all the way back to the date of the Creation, and the first Passover full moon (he believed God created the moon in the “full” phase). To do this, Hippolytus created a “lunar table.” A statue of him was discovered in Rome in 1551 AD and now sits in front of the Vatican Library. On the right side of the statue is a carving of this lunar table, taken from Hippolytus’ Canon, written in 222 AD.

This lunar table was designed to calculate the dates of past and future Passover full moons, by determining the date of the full moon occurring on the Vernal Equinox. The date of this Equinox was fixed on March 25 in the Julian Calendar. This turned out to be more difficult than Hippolytus thought, and his calculations went awry within just three years of calculating the dates.

However, that is not the point of discussion here. The point is, Hippolytus noted two things in his Canon; one, that the Passion of Jesus occurred on Friday, March 25, 29 AD. The second is, he wrote that the “genesis” of Christ occurred on April 2, 2 B.C. The word for “genesis” here is γένεσις. There is debate on whether this word means conception or birth, but given what I have read in the last week, I am strongly inclined to the former meaning. Researcher Thomas C. Schmidt has done a fantastic study of this. You can read the research here; I highly recommend it:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://tcschmidtblog.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/schmidt-calculating-december-25-as-the-birth-of-jesus-in-hippolytus1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjBxdjTi7SKAxVCJDQIHWFZAFUQFnoECA8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2lhWZdxL_02fUb4XjMbIa8

This was my starting point, but I branched out when I realized there were others who believed early on that Jesus was conceived on or about March 25. In 221, Julius Africanus, the Roman Christian historian, wrote that Jesus was conceived on March 25, the anniversary of the day Africanus believed God created the Earth. This would logically, given a nine-month gestation period, put Jesus’ birth on December 25.

So, there are now two sources who believed Jesus was born on December 25, as early as 221 AD. Is there an even earlier source? Turns out, it looks like there is!

Clement of Alexandria calculated Jesus birth backwards (what a way to figure, but whatever) from the death of the Emperor Commodus, thusly:

From the birth of Christ, therefore,
to the death of Commodus are, altogether,
194 years, 1 month, 13 days.

This would put Jesus’ birth on January 6. It is still celebrated on that date by the Armenian Apostolic Church.

Clement continues:

“And there are those who have determined
our Savior’s genesis
not only the year,
but even the day, which they say took place
in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus
on the 25th of Pachon…

And treating of his passion, with very great accuracy,
some say that it took place
in the sixteenth year of Tiberius,
on the 25th of Phamenoth,
but others the 25th of Pharmuthi
and others say
on the 19th of Pharmuthi the Savior suffered.

Indeed, others say
that he came to be on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi.”

The important word in there is “genesis,” most likely meaning conception. The translation of “genesis” as conception is consistent with Clement’s usage of this word in other contexts, for example:

“It is not therefore frequent intercourse by the parents, but the reception of it [the seed] in the womb which corresponds with genesis.” (Clement of Alexandria Stromata 3.12.83.2)

The 25th of Pharmuthi coincides with the Vernal Equinox in the Egyptian calendar and also matches one of the possible dates which Clement gives for the Passover of Jesus’ crucifixion.

This shows that in the time Clement wrote his Stromata, between 198 and 203 AD, where this information appears, there were already people who believed that Jesus was conceived on or about March 20-21, or on the Vernal Equinox.

What we know about the pagan holiday Saturnalia is, it was originally a one-day celebration on December 17. It was later extended to December 17-23. This is one celebration that has been suggested as a reason why Christians decided to put Jesus’ nativity on December 25, but this holiday never fell on that date.

A December 25th holiday, Sol Invictus, was instituted in 274 AD by the Emperor Aurelian, who made this the primary god of Rome.

“The festival of Sol Invictus on the 25th December in the later Roman empire combined the festivals of both the old sun god (Sol Indiges) and the new official sun god (Deus Sol Invictus). The Circus Maximus had been dedicated to Sol Indiges since ancient times, and then was dedicated to Sol Invictus. The Roman emperor Aurelian created the cult of Sol Invictus during his reign in AD 270-275 (in the 3rd century) and, on his coins, Sol was described as ‘Dominus Imperii Romani’, the official deity of the Roman empire.”

It has been suggested over the centuries that the “chosen” date of December 25 as the birth of Jesus was in response to the imposition of Sol Invictus. However, given that we know that 75-50 years PRIOR to Sol Invictus being instituted, Christian leaders believed Jesus was born on December 25, it is just as likely that Aurelian instituted the holiday against the Christian belief! This is actually more likely in my opinion, given the facts that: a) Romans were inclined to incorporate the gods of conquered cultures into their belief systems and had done so for centuries; and b) by the time of Jesus, Jews had been admonished against the practice of including foreign gods in their culture for literally thousands of years. This was almost the entire background cause of sin in the Old Testament.

This theory, that Jesus’ birth date was not chosen to subsume another religion’s holiday, but was instead “calculated” by early Church leaders from the Creation of the world, or from the dates of Passover full moons, is called the “Calculation Theory.”

This theory does not prove that Jesus was actually born on December 25, but rather it does strongly suggest, at least to me, that the date of his birth was NOT chosen in response to a foreign religion, but in accordance with the beliefs and dates spelled out in God’s Word, the Old Testament. Hippolytus used the dates in the Old Testament to calculate the years from the Creation to the birth of Jesus, as did Clement of Alexandria.

From Hippolytus Chronicon:

(§686) . . . from Adam until the transmigration into Babylon under Jeconiah, 57 generations, 4,842 years, 9 months. (§687) And after the transmigration into Babylon until the generation [generatio] of Christ, there were 14 generations, 660 years, and from the generation [generatio] of Christ until the Passion there were 30 years and from the Passion up until this year which is year 13 of the Emperor Alexander, there are 206 years. (§688) Therefore all the years from Adam up until year 13 of the Emperor Alexander make 5,738 years.
Chronicon §686-688

It is quite notable to me that there is a “9 months” period stated in this calculation, the span of human gestation. From Schmidt:

“Hippolytus only gives extraneous months on two occasions, once in §654 where he adds six months to David’s reign, and in §675 where he states that Jehoahaz reigned three months.”

So it is a rare case in his calculations to include months at all. The possible reasons for the nine month addition, how the translation of one word [generatio] affects the interpretation of it, and much more is found in Thomas C. Schmidt’s excellent research linked up above, if you want to read it.

I still don’t know for certain that Jesus was actually born on December 25. But I DO know that early Christians, based on their calculations of when God created the Earth, and when Passover full moons occurred and their dates, almost certainly believed that He was. And for now, that is good enough for me!

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU ALL!

Dear MAGA: 20240505 Open Topic

This Rejoice & Praise God Sunday Open Thread, with full respect to those who worship God on the Sabbath, is a place to reaffirm our worship of our Creator, our Father, our King Eternal.

It’s also a place to read, post, and discuss news that is worth knowing and sharing. Please post links to any news stories that you use as sources or quote from.

In the QTree, we’re a friendly and civil lot. We encourage free speech and the open exchange and civil discussion of different ideas. Topics aren’t constrained, and sound logic is highly encouraged, all built on a solid foundation of truth and established facts.

We have a policy of mutual respect, shown by civility. Civility encourages discussions, promotes objectivity and rational thought in discourse, and camaraderie in the participants – characteristics we strive toward in our Q Tree community.

Please show respect and consideration for our fellow QTreepers. Before hitting the “post” button, please proofread your post and make sure your opinion addresses the issue only, and does not confront or denigrate the poster. Keep to the topic – avoid “you” and “your”. Here in The Q Tree, personal attacks, name-calling, ridicule, insults, baiting, and other conduct for which a penalty flag would be thrown are VERBOTEN.

In The Q Tree, we’re compatriots, sitting around the campfire, roasting hot dogs, making s’mores, and discussing, agreeing, and disagreeing about whatever interests us. This board will remain a home for those who seek respectful conversations.

Please also consider the Guidelines for posting and discussion printed here: 
https://www.theqtree.com/2019/01/01/dear-maga-open-topic-20190101/


On this day and every day –

God is in Control
. . . and His Grace is Sufficient, so . . .
Keep Looking Up


Hopefully, every Sunday, we can find something here that will build us up a little . . . give us a smile . . . and add some joy or peace, very much needed in all our lives.

“This day is holy to the Lord your God;
do not mourn nor weep.” . . .
“Go your way, eat the fat, drink the sweet,
and send portions to those for whom nothing is prepared;
for this day is holy to our Lord.
Do not sorrow,
for the joy of the Lord is your strength.”

Psalm 23 is a beautiful poem that uses the image of God as shepherd. David, who penned this psalm, had been a shepherd himself and understood the parallel between the task of a shepherd caring for his sheep and of God caring for His people. Sheep are totally dependent on the shepherd for food, water, leadership, and guidance as they move from place to place, just as we are dependent upon God for all that we need. Sheep depend on the shepherd for protection from a wide range of predators and dangers, just as we look to God as our Protector and Defender. In the New Testament, Jesus reveals Himself to be the Good Shepherd of His people (John 10:11, 14), fulfilling the Old Testament prophecy that God would come to shepherd His people (Ezekiel 34:7–16, 23).

Psalm 23:4, addressing the Lord Shepherd, says, “Your rod and your staff, they comfort me.” David bases this description on the practices of shepherds in his day. Shepherds of the time commonly carried a rod and staff as essential to their work.

The rod mentioned in Psalm 23 is a symbol of the Lord’s strength and protection. The rod was a sturdy wooden stick used as a weapon to fight off wild animals who might have hoped to make an easy meal out of an otherwise defenseless flock of sheep. The shepherd also used the rod to help him keep count of the sheep within the flock (as alluded to in Leviticus 27:32). Young David recounted an incident to King Saul in which he probably used his shepherd’s rod: “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it” (1 Samuel 17:34–35).

The staff mentioned in Psalm 23 is a symbol of the Lord’s guidance and lovingkindness. The staff was a long, slender stick, often hooked at the tip, used primarily to direct the flock. Sheep are notorious wanderers, and once away from the shepherd’s watchful eye, they get into all sorts of trouble (Matthew 18:12–14). The shepherd used his staff to keep his sheep out of danger and close to himself. If a sheep became trapped in a precarious position, the shepherd would loop the curved end of the staff around the neck of the sheep and retrieve it back to safety.

W. Philip Keller, in his book A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23, comments on the uniqueness of the shepherd’s staff: “In a sense, the staff, more than any other item of his personal equipment, identifies the shepherd as a shepherd. No one in any other profession carries a shepherd’s staff. It is uniquely an instrument used for the care and management of sheep—and only sheep. It will not do for cattle, horses or hogs. It is designed, shaped and adapted especially to the needs of sheep” (from chapter 8).

Together, the rod and staff of Psalm 23 paint a picture of the divine Shepherd who wields them. He is strong, competent, and trustworthy; He is present with His sheep, able to defend them and watch over them through all the dangers they face. Knowing that we have such a Shepherd who is ready to protect us from danger, keep us close, and rescue us when we go astray truly is a great comfort to us, the sheep.

https://www.gotquestions.org/rod-staff-Psalm-23.html

Jesus is Lord Today & Every Day

Hi Q-Tree this is a super quick post in case Carl is unable to post his usual Sunday teaching & encouragement. Per reports on sister blogs, Sylvia’s at least, Carl is pretty sick with Covid & needs our prayers.

So no matter what is swirling around us, or within us, Jesus is Still Lord…

Here is a site that has compiled a number of Bible verses that expound on Jesus as Lord:

https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/jesus-is-lord-bible-verses/

Here is another teaching, in its entirety, from this site:

https://www.christianity.com/jesus/is-jesus-god/names-of-jesus/what-does-it-mean-to-call-jesus-lord.html

What Is the Real Meaning of “Jesus Is Lord”?

In the New Testament, Lord is the most frequently used title for Jesus Christ. Although we rarely use this term in our daily lives, we are all quite familiar with another word: boss. That is basically what Lord means—one possessing authority, power, and control. The Word of God describes Jesus as the head of the church, the ruler over all creation, and the Lord of lords and King of kings (Col. 1:15-18Rev. 3:14, 17:14).


Jesus is Lord:
 Scripture Meaning

Following the resurrection, the term “Lord,” being applied to Jesus, became more than an indication of devotion or respect. Stating, “Jesus is Lord,” became a way of recognizing Jesus’ divine standing. 

References of Jesus as Lord started with Thomas’ declaration when Jesus arrived at the apostles after His resurrection: “Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” (John 20:28). From thereafter, the message of the Apostles was that Jesus is Lord, signifying that “Jesus is God.” 

Peter’s sermon on the Day of Pentecost carried that idea: “Let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah” (Acts 2:36). Peter later declared this in the house of Cornelius, stating that Jesus is “Lord of all” (Acts 10:36).  It is important to note that in Romans 10:9 Jesus’ lordship is connected to His resurrection: “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

The declaration “Jesus is Lord” indicates that Jesus is God. Jesus holds “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18). He is “Lord of the Sabbath” (Luke 6:5); “our only Sovereign and Lord” (Jude 1:4); and “the Lord of lords” (Revelation 17:14).

What Makes Jesus a “Lord”?

The realm of Christ’s reign covers everything that happens in heaven and on the earth. No one—not even those who deny His existence—can be free of His rule or outside His sphere of authority. Although Satan tries to convince us that liberty is found in doing what we want, true freedom is acquired only through submission to Christ’s loving lordship.

Even death cannot release anyone from the authority of God’s Son. He is Lord of both the living and the dead. All people must decide to either yield or rebel against Him, but they have the opportunity to make this choice only while they are still living. After death, they will acknowledge Christ’s lordship through accountability to Him. If we have not bowed the knee to Jesus in life, we will be forced to bend it in the judgment.

Have you submitted to Christ’s rule over your life? His authority causes anger or fear in individuals who have not yet yielded to Him, but those who have experienced His loving kindness trusted in His goodness and surrendered to His authority take comfort in knowing Him as the Lord of their lives.

Taken from “Lord of the Living and the Dead” from In Touch Ministries (used by permission).

These are long days of darkness & often despair, but we who know the Lord need fear no evil for the Lord is with us. He has promised never to leave nor forsake us, which is a great comfort in times of tremendous turbulence. So as we keep fighting the good fight let’s continue to look to the Lord, the author & finisher of our faith, our soon coming King!

May God Bless YOU Richly, Today and Always. In Jesus’ Love, Valerie

Be Ready

You all, of course, must remember one of my favorite “Q” memes.

Bear in mind that I have always thought it “cute” that a mysterious Q was famous long before the Q of “QAnon”.


LINK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source

The “Two-source Hypothesis” proposes that the Gospels of Matthew and Luke were written independently, each using Mark and a second hypothetical document called “Q” as a source. Q was conceived as the most likely explanation behind the common material (mostly sayings) found in the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke but not in the Gospel of Mark. Material from two other sources—the M source and the L source—are represented in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke here by green and teal respectively.


Anyway, let me get to the point quickly.

TheseTruths, among others, noticed that I was gone from late Saturday night / early Sunday Morning until Monday evening.

There were several excellent theories proposed as to why I wasn’t here, and to some extent, all of them are true.

But among these truths, and others, one is most true of all.

I had thought about keeping it a secret, but in a prior post which was fallout from the passing of Wheatietoo, I had stated that I was going to be somewhat more open about what was happening to me in real life. I intend to keep that promise – for several reasons.

More than anything, what I want to tell you is “biblical”, shall we say, and I want to live my life according to biblical standards.

LINK: https://www.openbible.info/topics/as_a_thief_in_the_night

So let me tell you what’s up.

I’m home from the hospital, and while I’m not out of the woods, I’m technically OK.

In a funny way, none of us are ever, really, out of the woods.

But I am OK – enough that the doctors sent me home with all sorts of things I have to take, and things I have to do, for several weeks. I’m basically “back”.

So I’m still coming to grips with the whole “near death” experience.

I’m not going to say exactly what happened. I need to leave some ambiguity. Ambiguity also serves the purpose of this lesson. Whatever you fear the most, or think most likely to happen to YOU – whatever could sneak up on you in YOUR life – or the most troubling explanation to YOU of what happened to me – let that be your guide and call to action. But even with that ambiguity, I am going to tell you all the important parts.

I literally said goodbye to my wife in the ER, literally ready to go to Jesus.

I have been praying and meditating on readiness to “go to Jesus” lately, so I KNEW I was ready. It was like parachuting, after training. I was nervous, but I wasn’t scared, or about to deviate. I was ready to jump out the door.

I was slipping away. I didn’t think I was going to make it. I said goodbye at the last possible moment, because I refused to leave my wife without saying goodbye. I felt my faith surge – pure – no regrets – a sinner, yes, but cleansed and ready to go to God. I trusted God in that moment, letting go.

And RIGHT THEN – that INSTANT – is when everything just turned around. The people working on me get credit, too – don’t get me wrong. God has many angels.

As I was going unconscious from loss of blood – numbers on the machine crashing and alarms going off – people running in and out of the room – as the world faded from my eyes – right then, as I thought “I’m ready, Jesus – take me to God” – it just reversed.

I remain stunned by it all.

Sure, there are rational explanations, but the facts themselves are inescapably haunting.

And now I’m back home. I’m almost at a loss for words. I was close to death, watching the life pour out of me, saying goodbye, making my final peace, and now I’m back here like any other day.

If I fail to tell you this, for any reason, I’ve failed to tell an important truth. So I’m telling you now. I don’t have to understand it. I just have to tell you.

Another point – about faith – and about the things in which we have faith.

Thanks to my trauma training, I knew that I had lost a lot of blood, and had done everything I could to limit that loss before getting to the hospital. I knew how much I could lose, before it was too late, and that I had already borrowed heavily against that limit.

I lost even more in the hospital – obviously a dangerous amount. My wife knew from my color that I was still OK when we got there, but she also knew when I was getting into trouble. But I don’t think the people there realized it until my numbers started crashing and the alarms started going off. My wife knew it before they did. And then, later, in my hospital room, when people saw my hemoglobin values, back from the lab, the nurses were, like, “Wow, you lost a lot of blood”. I didn’t have to get a transfusion, for which I also thank God. Apparently I had very high levels of hemoglobin in my blood to start, and I thank God for that.

But the point is, I sensed in most of the people around me, a lot of faith in technology and numbers coming out of machines, and not a lot of faith in observations and common sense.

And that is EXACTLY what is wrong with our elections.

Nevertheless, and perhaps oddly, my faith in humanity was restored. Everybody I met in the hospital, as people, were imperfect like me, yet possessed a divine spark that I can now see clearly.

As I was recovering, I told myself that I want to spend the rest of my life serving God, and serving God better than I have been. And that starts by telling people about this incident, and by not keeping it a secret. I will let people draw their own conclusions, but to me, God is very real, and even more so now.

The end can come like a thief in the night.

And sometimes – even when you are ready – somebody may be there to catch you when you fall.

Why that is, remains a beautiful mystery.

Dear MAGA: Open Topic 20181225

This SPECIAL CHRISTMAS open thread is VERY OPEN – a place for everybody to post whatever they feel they would like to tell the White Hats, and the rest of the MAGA world.

Say what you want, comment on what other people said, comment on people’s comments.  Keep it civil.  Treehouse rules, but expect lots of QAnon.


Remember – your greatest gift to President Trump is FIVE WORDS:

I AM PRAYING FOR YOU


For Christmas, I decided to “keep the Christ in Christmas” and choose images of nativity scenes for this post. I love abstract art for its deep symbolic meaning, which helps us concentrate on the spiritual. I also love impressionist art for its deep feeling. The impressionist nativity scene below was my favorite, but if I used it as a header, the Christ Child at the bottom would not be in the image when viewed at the page itself. In other words, I would not be “keeping the Christ in Christmas”, defeating my purpose.

Therefore I chose the abstract image you see, which includes all the important figures, ESPECIALLY the Christ Child, and which fortuitously placed the Three Wolf Moon site avatar exactly where you see it. The placement (desktop version) was so oddly symbolic of our group’s spiritual awe and respect, hovering mysteriously nearby yet untouching and unseen, as if we were there invisibly in spirit, that I decided it had to be the one! But that also meant I could use the impressionist image here, where you can appreciate the whole thing.

Some things are just meant to be. Ponder these images and you will be refreshed in spirit. Both of them say so much. Which Bible verses do they speak to you?

Please feel free to add every possible Christmas image to this thread!

Merry Christmas!

W